Why Every Communicator Needs to Think Faster and Talk Smarter - with Matt Abrahams

0:00 Daniel Nestle: welcome, or welcome back to the trending communicator. I'm your host, Dan Nussle. So, what if you could communicate clearly in situations that might be stressful so that you could honestly and authentically answer tough questions on the spot. For example, after reading think faster, talk smarter. The best selling book on impromptu speaking by Matt Abrahams, I was able to handle a q&a session at a workshop a few weeks ago, by applying better listening skills. And that's not all. Matt's book also gave me a killer pitch formula that I'm using to expand my role and grow my career. It's also as you might have guessed by now how I set up the opening of today's show. And the story is true Matt's book, Think faster, talk smarter really helped me. It's a handy guide to getting out of your own way, gaining confidence, managing anxiety, and developing strategies for speaking when you're put on the spot, and my listeners will know how much I truly enjoy being put on the spot. So it's really helpful, a helpful, helpful book, but don't take my word for it. It's my immense honor to have with me today, the man himself. He's a leading expert in strategic communication, public speaking, a consultant to CEOs and Nobel Laureates. He's a professor at Stanford University's Graduate School of Business, he's the host of Think fast talk smart, the podcast. And yes, the author of think faster, talk smarter how to speak successfully when you're put on the spot, Matt Abrahams,

1:34 Matt Abrahams: it's great to see you. Great to be here with you. I'm really excited. And I love that you use the pitch structure I teach is the way to start. And in it you shared about how listening helped you. So you get an A plus, if you were in Mike wells, I Daniel Nestle: like to get a little meta and kind of dig in a little bit with my guests and understand, you know, how, how, what they've actually done, how it's contributed to me and how I can then turn around and, and help my guests benefit in some way. And you know, what you've done here with with think faster, talk smarter, this incredible book, and I'm holding it up for Matt to see and see the little post its I have got sticking out there, which is always evidence that someone has read a book, I think, I think when you're interviewing somebody and they don't have post, it's in the book, you got to be a little suspicious.

2:21 Matt Abrahams: Well, I one, it actually warms my heart, you know, people that when you write a book, people often ask, you know, how do you know if the book was successful. And and I don't care if the book gets on lists or other things, I care that people actually read it, to me successes, if their dog years post, it's underlined, highlighted. That, to me, is the purpose. It's to help people and if you're finding value in it, and going to return back to it to give you that help, then then I have been successful. So it actually warms my heart to see that you've got some posts and dog ears in there. It really helps. Daniel Nestle: I mean, well, well, not only is it is it helpful, Matt, it's, it's just practical. I mean, I think it just speaks to people. Now speaking for as a as a PR and comms person, I'm supposed to have messaging in my blood, right? I'm supposed to understand how to go out there and talk to people. But speaking on the spot is always hard. It's always hard and I've shied away, almost my entire career, I've shied away when people say, Well, you could be the spokesperson for this and like now, not me, I'm not the spokesperson, I am, I'm the guy behind the spokesperson, I'm the guy who likes to write the, you know, the talking points or can advise, but you know, what, last couple years, coming out here on this show, doing my own thing, understanding a little bit more that actually, you know, I, I probably can speak a little more out front, I'm getting much more comfortable with the role of, you know, of being in front of people and talking and a lot of that, you know, is sort of organic, right? It just happens over time you're putting these positions you put in these these situations. And you don't realize that you've been skill, building your whole life to get there, right, then along comes a

3:58 book like this. And it's like, oh, yeah, this is this makes sense. Oh, now I can put like a couple of that could put a formula to what I'm doing. It's really excellent. And, you know, I think that for people who haven't had the benefit of 20 something years of being in marketing and PR, especially that I mean, this book is just me for any level of your career. I think it's just a great place to start. And, you know, it's, it's a reflection of where you've been. And, you know, I I think that's where I want to actually start talking here today. I mean, I always talk too much on these things. But how about we start with the way I usually start, which is why don't you tell us a little bit about your journey, Matt, like how did you get to this point of I want to tell people I want to help people to speak on the spot. It's a very unique niche by niche place to be. Well, it's Matt Abrahams: an a much needed place to be I think so if you think about it, most of our communication is in the moment. It's not the plan presentation or the pitch or the meeting with an agenda. It's really these in the moment situations answering questions, giving feedback. Introducing yourself making small talk. And there's a personal story here. And then there's a professional story about my interest. So with my last name, Abraham's a bee, I have been spontaneous speaking my entire life all through school from elementary school, even through graduate school. I always knew where I would sit.

5:21 And I always knew that I would go First Tee I was a high school teacher for a few years, I am a teacher, I know sometimes we get lazy and we just put people alphabetically. So I growing up was always put on the spot. Whenever the teacher asked a question and they went around the room, they would start with me. So I, I developed a an expectation around spontaneous speaking and to some degree, a level of comfort with it, just because after doing it so much, you get a little comfortable. Fast forward, many, many decades after elementary school, I was asked by the Stanford deans of the business school where I teach and had been there for over 13 years now. They they came to me with a problem and they said, our very bright business students, some of the best, brightest minds in business, you know, young minds, in the world are struggling, answering teachers cold calls, the professor would say, What do you think? And the students even knowing the answer would struggle to get that answer out? And they said, Is there anything you could do to help them feel more comfortable and confident, and that was my portal to exploring this whole idea. So I did a deep dive into research in psychology, sociology, anthropology, neuroscience, improvisation and acting. And as a result, created a methodology that now every Stanford MBA student, within the first three weeks of their time on campus has the opportunity to go through this content, they come out of it feeling more comfortable and confident in

6:52 their non in their speaking in the moment, and the professors are saying, Hey, we're getting better dialogue, better conversation. So this methodology was born out of a very specific need. And over the years, I took it out of the classroom, and I've been using it in the teaching, I do the videos, I produced the podcast I do. And I've seen how others can benefit. So that was really the impetus for the book is to bring this information to as many people as possible, so we can actually all do better speaking in the moment, Daniel Nestle: it's, it's really needed. You know, I think I'm gonna probably say this 100 times during our conversation, but how necessary this is. I think it's even more so now that we are such a kind of, we're for strewn about the universe as remote workers and in person workers. And, you know, you have different modes and different. Let's say theatres, in which you have to communicate every day. Yeah, it's always different, always changing. And I think it causes a lot of pain. I like for people who have been in corporate life, their whole career who've been in, and they're only coming to grips with it now, I think. And some folks are absolutely jumping in and saying this is fantastic. Some people, I think, are having some little consternation about the whole thing. So I wanted to ask you, about, you know, those pain points that people are kind of having, and you know, what you're seeing, and I know you're dealing with students a lot, and especially MBA students, MBA students typically have some experience and work experience behind them. And, you know, you've you've counseled and consulted with people across

8:39 industries, and are very deep into what I like to call our profession, the communications profession, in many ways. So thinking about like, thinking about that, what your book points out six, kind of, you know, steps or strategies or overall topic areas that we can think about the pain speaking on, you know, when you're put on the spot, can we go through some of those a little bit and just talk through the steps and try to gear it a little bit towards like, people who are might be having trouble with this these days? Matt Abrahams: Yeah, absolutely. So the the book is divided into two sections. The first section is the methodology. I'm happy now to walk you through the six steps. And then the second part is all about very specific, spontaneous speaking situations that we find ourselves in like answering questions, giving feedback, small talk pitching, as you gave an example when you started. So happy to talk about that later. The the six step methodology divides into four mindset or approach steps and then to messaging or framework steps. So in terms of where we start, the first thing we have to deal with is anxiety. Anxiety looms large in all communication, and it's part of being human. We get nervous when we speak in front of others, but there are things we can do to manage that anxiety and in the very first Step in the first chapter I talk about very specific, academically verified techniques we can use to begin to reduce our anxiety and build our confidence in speaking. The second step has us looking at our goal. Many of us when we speak in spontaneous speaking situations want to do it right, we want to be perfect, we want to answer the question, with the right answer, we want to give the best feedback, we want to be

10:25 the most interesting in small talk. And that pressure we put on ourselves to be perfect gets in the way of us actually getting it done. So I like to say strive for connection over perfection, when I put my focus on connecting and getting my ideas across to you, rather than Am I saying it the right way, I do better. And it boils down to cognitive load, your brain can only process so much at one time. And if I am focused on judging and evaluating everything, I'm saying, I'm splitting that cognitive load, and I have less to actually be present with you. So I'm not saying don't judge and evaluate, we need to but turn the volume down. Put your attention on the other person. So that's step two. Yeah, Step. Go ahead.

11:11 Daniel Nestle: I'm sorry, man, can I just just interrupt there for a second. And I apologize, because I know you've been through this, like you've been on the tour, you're talking about these steps. That these two, these first two in particular, were screaming at me, when I was written the book. And this, this whole idea of cognitive load and connection, connection versus over perfection, but, you know, people, especially in our, in our world, were in the communications world where we are, you know, we have to produce q&a and talking points, and they got to be right, they got to be right, they got to be right. And I think it mistakenly translates into well, now when I talk to the CEO, or I talk to some in front of somebody, I always have to be right. And I always have to be on. So shifting, that mindset is so hard, right? It's so hard to say, okay, don't let perfect be the enemy of good or whatever way you want to whatever way you want to call it. And, you know, and I think it's it's very, very directly connected to anxiety, it certainly drives anxiety. Right? And I, personally have had loads of anxiety issues during my career, and during my time, and I was hoping that you could just just dig into these two things at first, and then we can move on to the third one after that. So Matt Abrahams: yeah, yeah, so certainly, so when it comes to managing anxiety, you are not alone. Most people up to 85% of people report being anxious in high stakes situations. And quite frankly, I think the other 15% are lying. When it comes to managing anxiety, we have to take a two pronged approach.

12:44 First, we have to manage symptoms, those are the things that we physiologically experience. And then we also have to manage sources. Those are the things that initiate and exacerbate our anxiety. So when it comes to symptomatic relief, maybe it's you feel your heart beating faster, maybe you blushing perspire, maybe you get shaky, these are all normal and natural, your body is responding to the communication situation as if it were a threat, and you invoke fight or flight when under threat. single best thing anybody can do is to take a deep belly breath, the kind you would take, if you've ever done yoga, or tai chi or Chi Gong, it's a deep belly breath. And what it does is it calms down your autonomic nervous system, the key is to have your exhalation be twice as long as your inhalation. So the rule of lung if you will, is to take a three count in and a six count out. And if you do that just two or three times you'll see some benefit of doing it. Now if you're really shaky, that's adrenaline adrenaline sole purpose is to move you from threat to safety. So doing some kind of purposeful movement that that is one that's embracing can really help. So when you start if you're physically in a room with people step towards your audience, or if you're virtual, when you begin speaking lean in a little bit gesture, this gives that adrenaline a place to go. Therefore, you'll stop shaking as much. Finally, if you're like me, and you turn red and you perspire, when you get nervous, that's your core body temperature going up, we need to reduce that. And by holding something cold in the palms of your hand, you actually cool yourself down. When you get nervous, your heart beats faster, your body tenses up, your blood pressure goes up because you're pushing more blood through tighter tubes.

14:25 It's like you're exercising. So we need to cool ourselves down and holding something cold can do that. So that's symptomatic relief. And there are many many other techniques. The first book I wrote was called speaking up without freaking out it's 50 techniques based on academic research to help you reduce your anxiety and build your confidence. So you have to find the ones that work for you. Not every technique works for every person. The other side of the equation is sources. And I already started talking about one of the main sources which is striving for perfection. So we have to remind ourselves I am in service of my audience by thinking about the needs of the audience that takes attention away from ourselves and away from trying to be perfect, and puts it more on connection, and how do I make this meaningful for you? And when I do that, I nip that source in the bud and become less nervous about the speaking and more concerned about the connection. So that's how those first two steps connect together. Oh, Daniel Nestle: that makes sense. I did want to I did want to share with you that I did do my own anxiety management plan or Cooper your book. Yeah. And mine is called pits, PITS, which is not telling me Matt Abrahams: what it stands for really entitled living in your armpits, Daniel Nestle: no positive intent. Right. Inhale, exhale, right.

15:43 So the breathing, right, so be positive first, then inhale, exhale, because, and then because of what you have just said, then think, take a pause and think mindfully. And then I used to salivate, like, take care of that physical symptom of dry mouth, because I always have that. So that's my, that's my initial kind of stab at an AMP. And I, I really love in the book, how you lay a lot of these symptoms out. And also in the, if you do get, especially if you get the audio book, but I believe even if you purchase the book, there are additional resources on Matt's website that have these things all detailed out, we can get back there. Yeah, later, but it's amazing.

16:23 Matt Abrahams: There's a there's a simple QR code, you click on it and you go to this whole website that has additional stuff that I update pretty regularly. I love your anxiety management plan is great. Mine is three simple things. I take a deep breath, I remind myself I'm in service of my audience. And I say tongue twisters before I start communication to warm up my voice and get me present focused. Daniel Nestle: So I love tongue twisters. What's your favorite one? Matt Abrahams: Ah, you have to repeat it after me. Go for it. It's three phrases takes five seconds. And if you say it wrong, you say a naughty word. So repeat after me. I slit a sheet. Daniel Nestle: I slit a sheet, a sheet, I Matt Abrahams: slit a sheet I slit and on that slitted sheet I sit and on that slitted sheet I said very good. You didn't say the naughty word. You could see what it would be though.

17:08 Daniel Nestle: That's a good one. Yeah, I've always been a big fan of tongue twisters. And my favorite one just your Matt Abrahams: voice and they get great and oriented. It is great. I liked the Betty Botter. One, it's do that one, that it's Daniel Nestle: easy for somebody from the East Coast who's like, who doesn't pronounce T's properly. So Betty butter, butter, butter butter, if you bought you know, you can sort of slur those together, you can slide them around and you know, impress people at the same time. Sorry. So let's let's get back. I am I'm very I'm very, always grateful for for distractions. But that's against rule number six, or number six in the methodologies, which is the F word of communication. We'll get to that in a few minutes. Let's get back to the third point. So your we talked about reducing anxiety, we talked about connection of perfection. Next. Yes.

17:56 Matt Abrahams: So the next step in the methodology has to do with reframing these situations not as threats, but as as seeing them as opportunities. Many of us when we are in the moment of having to respond spontaneously, we see them as threats, we see them as something that is harmful to us. So when somebody asks a question, we feel like we're under threat where this is a test, I have to respond, versus seeing it as an opportunity, an opportunity to connect, to expand to learn to collaborate. Even in the situation where the questions are most challenging or the feedback feels like it is the request for feedback is some kind of gauntlet you have to get through. Even in those moments, it's an opportunity to find commonality, and to help. And if we can reframe these situations, that way, it can benefit us. So when I have somebody who's really harsh and really challenging, I remind myself that they're coming from a place where they care about the topic to the same degree I do, or they have some passion for it, there's a place I can connect much better than dealing with somebody who's apathetic and doesn't care. So the third step is a whole slew of techniques to help you see these things as positive connective and collaborative. Step four is about listening. We have to listen intently. So we know how to respond appropriately. Most of us listen just enough to get the gist of what somebody is saying. And then we go into our practicing rehearsing, judging, evaluating, instead of listening for the top line, we need to listen for the bottom line. And in listening for the bottom line, we listened in a more focused way and we will pay attention to nuance to the circumstance to the situation to people's nonverbal behavior. So when we listen better, we can respond better. So step three is

19:42 about seeing it as opportunity. Step four is about listening. Daniel Nestle: Excellent. Step three. When we think about onions, these are all all these are so interconnected, as well, as as you speak, I can hear it even more. You know, it's funny because I listened to The book on audio and I read it at the same time because I find that to be a really good way of getting it in there. And I got so enamored with your voice, so I'm listening to you speak now. And I'm like, yes. Okay, this is, it's really becoming clearer and clearer to me. The, the idea of mindset is really kind of underpins so much of this does not, does it not, I mean, just, I've spoken about it on the show before I've had people to come and talk about mindset and leadership mindset, and, you know, and, and success mindset mindset mindset. And you mentioned the Carol Dweck book in your, in your, in your book as well. You know, I've gotten feedback on occasion that says, Well, you know, it's just a simple mental exercise.

20:42 I don't think so. You know, I feel like mindset is a much harder thing to accomplish. And, and I was, you know, just, just curious or, you know, wondering if there are any, you know, what you've done to, to keep that in front of mind in front of center, as you go through your day to day even because I think it's something that has to underpin almost all of communication is that mindset, it's it's that growth mindset to seeing opportunities, rather than, than problems and seeing the future rather than the past. You know, there's there's a lot there to, Matt Abrahams: to unpack. So mindset is critical to effective communication, and I believe to just being effective in life. And, to me, I'm always thinking about what are the tactics and practices I can use to help myself and others? So let me share a few that helped me as I tried to be more open in my mindset. And I do a quote Carol Dweck and others who study this. I'm very fortunate on my podcast to have interviewed Alia Crum, who does amazing work around mindset. And let me give you just a few in the book, I actually give forced four different mindset hacks, if you will, or unlocks to help. I'll just give you a few of them. One is this notion of not yet. And this comes directly from Carol Dweck. So work on growth mindset, growth mindset is all about when you meet, when you don't perform as well as you wish when when things don't go the way you want. Rather than saying, I'm a bad person, I'm

22:19 not capable, you see and search out growth opportunities to improve on that. And one of the things she talks about is this not yet approach. So when something doesn't go the way you want it to when you didn't achieve what you had hoped to achieve. Simply say to yourself, not yet. It doesn't mean I can't it doesn't mean I won't, it just means not yet, not now, and that's a very motivational place to be, then you can begin thinking about what do I need to accomplish in order to get to where I want to be so not yet is really powerful. And when I have some kind of stumbler, or something doesn't go the way I want, I will say to myself, not yet. Another approach, which I think is really helpful comes from the world of sport. It was I first heard of it, through the famous college basketball coach Mike chef ski Coach K, as he is referred to, he inculcated in his team. And it really is permeated all sports, this notion of next play. And next play simply means that when something doesn't go the way you want, immediately move to the next play thinking about what's next rather than ruminating in the moment, if you're a basketball player and you miss a shot, you sit there going, Oh, I've practiced that shot so many times, I can't believe I missed it, this is awful, you've missed the next play, the other team is already down the court, you're not there defending. Similarly, if you have an amazing shot, and it's great, don't sit there congratulating yourself because again, the team is down the court and you're not down there.

23:47 When something goes wrong, the tendency for us is to ruminate, to try to dissect it and fix it in that moment. And that means you're not in the next moment where something is happening that you could add value. So I want to avoid rumination in the moment. But we certainly want to do reflection after the fact reflection is really critical to growth to to improving to learning. But next play. So those are two of just several techniques for how you can adopt a more opportunistic mindset. Not yet. Next play those will really help. Daniel Nestle: I am so into that whole next play idea i I often forget it. As I go through my day to day you get weighed down by the minutia, or the big things, you know that that are unavoidable. A lot of them are externalities, a lot of them are things that come up at work, things that just will happen all the time and you dwell, you know, dwell, dwell, dwell, and you get in your own head. And that, I think, is something I well, I mean, I've heard from feedback every now and then Dan, you're getting in your own head. You're too far into your own head. Let's step out. And it's something that I in turn, try To see and other people who are who I might be managing, or I might be leading, or who I'm working with, you know, just say, You know what, let's take a breath. Let's take a beat. Let's, let's get out of our own head. And let's, let's, let's see what's coming up next. I find it to be such a critical tactic almost, but it's not really tactic, I think, because it has to be built into your programming, you know, you have to, you have to

25:22 really practice it. Get it in there, reprogram yourself. What do they call it? Thank Thank goodness for neuroplasticity so that you can so that you can, you know, kind of change, change your era, your behaviors? Absolutely. Matt Abrahams: So we can learn new things and work and work on new ways of being sure. Yeah, Daniel Nestle: but that getting inside your head is such a big one. And I think I think people, you know, if they pick up one thing, from from this, it's, it's get out of your own way. And that is such a it's a mindset issue. You know, for the most part it as far as, as far as I've seen. So you were saying that those are the mindset, the points about mindset. And, you know, I wanted to go back to the to listening. So listening was the was the next point. Yes. And, you know, another one that that I think, gets such short shrift in a day to day world? How can we be better listeners, we've been we've been hearing about this for years, you lay it out really nicely. You know, how, with in connection with mindset in connection with with, with anxiety reduction, and if you're a better listener, the anxiety goes down.

26:39 It's a, you know, surprised everybody. Calm down, listen, your anxiety will go down. But what would you say are some of the things that you would recommend to, to reduce or to to be a better listener? Matt Abrahams: Yeah, so first and foremost, just recognizing the importance of listening, listening is really, really important. And we need to do it. We need to spend the time doing it. As I said, we listen for the top line, not the bottom line. When we listen, well, we get more insight into what is needed. Imagine you and I come out of a meeting. And you say, Hey, Matt, how'd that go? And I hear oh, feedback. Well, we could have done this better, we should have done this, we shouldn't have done that, and itemize all the things that went wrong and all the things we could have done better. Had I listened more deeply, I would have noticed that you asked that question while looking down, your tone was was quiet, you would actually come out the back door, not the front door. In that moment, you weren't looking for feedback, you were looking for support in my itemization of all the things that went wrong, only make you feel worse. And I may have ruin that moment and potentially negatively affected our future interactions. Because I didn't listen deeply. So in the book, I talk about a three step approach to help people listen better. And I borrow this from a colleague of mine at the business school, his name is Collins Dobbs, he teaches a crucial communication class like high stakes communication, and he has this methodology that helps and it works perfectly for listening. Three things pace, space, Grace, I love this. We live in a world where everything is moving so fast, we have to slow down, you cannot listen

28:23 intently and move quickly, you have to be slow, slow down. Second, we have to not just address pace. But we also have to give ourselves space, sometimes it's physical space, get to a place where you can actually hear well, more importantly, it's mental space, free up the bandwidth to be present in the moment, you will listen better if you're present, if you're distracted, if you're looking at a device, it is a problem. And then finally, grace, grace is about giving yourself permission to do the pace in space. But it's also to give yourself permission to pay attention to not just the words, but how the words are said where the words are said and permission to listen to your intuition that comes up as a result of what people say, because of our experience when somebody says something that might remind us of something or trigger something in us. And that's useful information as well. So pace, space and grace, along with the techniques I recommend for practicing in in this particular chapter will help you to be a better listener. And I talked about asking follow up questions and paraphrasing and being okay, taking silence for a moment to process. All of those things will help Daniel Nestle: you be a better listener. All that I mean, listening for what's unsaid was one of the things that jumped out at me as well. You know, just just how do you how do you kind of just what, in fact example you you shared the hypothetical you shared of us coming out of a meeting room, right? Looking at Hearing those hearing the words how to go and jumping immediately to feedback. You know, what was unsaid was I didn't I really I just had a bad time in there. I'm not feeling

30:08 good about myself. Right? I act that's such a, that has been a revelatory thing for me in the last several years. And I feel like the the pace of technological change and I feel like certainly the the reliance on zoom in these, these various communication mediums to compress time and space in such a way that we forget about pacing and spacing, and certainly don't, we don't have a lot of grace, right? You know, the everyday we're on these, whether you're you know, especially if you're a remote worker, or you are you're in a hybrid situation, your schedule is, is planned to the hour to the minute, boom, boom, boom, one after another, you don't have this kind of ability to say, hey, let's take a walk.

30:56 Unknown: That's like, Oh, Daniel Nestle: that's a great example of space. Let's take a walk. And let's talk about things. And I feel like this is something that we really need to pay closer attention to. Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. And I love, I love this notion of walking. So at the business school at Stanford, there's research that says, when you walk and talk, you actually connect better, you're out in nature, you're moving, you're more focused. So at the Stanford Business School, we all of us who teach there, not all of us, many of us who teach there, do what we call talks, walking and talking. So when you set up a meeting, it can be an in person meeting, a virtual meeting or a talk. And I have had some of the most enriching great connective conversations, while walking around the campus, talking with my colleagues. Now I have to share with you a few of my colleagues, I think I'm in OK, shape, a few of these folks are in great shape. And I ended up being out of breath, because they're walking so fast and talking. But it's a great way to force yourself to connect, and you'll listen better. I missed Daniel Nestle: those days, I missed the times where you do walking meetings, you know, yeah. Or even. And, you know, it's on the personal side. Now that you mentioned it, it's those twice daily walks I do with my wife with the dogs. Yeah, that are such an important way for us to connect and bond together, you know, you're when we're in the house, doing, you know, I'm working, she's doing her own thing got kids to deal with, yeah, we're out there walking, put the phones in the back pocket, don't pay attention to those. And all you got is you, you guys, you know you your partner in the dogs. You don't need dogs clearly if you want to go on a walk. But I you know, now that you mentioned it really does this make a lot of sense. And

32:32 Matt Abrahams: you know, since the pandemic, during the pandemic, my wife and I took to walking daily. And we have kept that that tradition. And it's really connective, and we learned that, that we actually have a flow to our work. So we start by checking in with each other. And we deal with sort of the blocking and tackling of being a couple and parents. And then we just enjoy nature and enjoy each other's company. And that rhythm is also very helpful to us. Daniel Nestle: And it's the only place that you can be where you know, you're not going to be overheard by the kids. Matt Abrahams: That That's true. That's true. I haven't I haven't found them following us yet. Daniel Nestle: That's very tactically important thing to do. So those those first four areas are the other more of the mindset issues, right? Yes. And you said that there are two more and I know there's two more, because I've read the book that are more focused on structure and tactics. So let's look within the next two parts of the methodology. I like this breaking into twos by the way, everything you Matt Abrahams: said is all that you just recapped is all about mindset. That's how you approach these situations. Once we have that approach, we then actually have to say something I mean, it's spontaneous communication. So we have to either write or speak. And the second two steps are first structure have a framework. And then the second is is the focus. So Step six is about focus, as we alluded to. So I believe very firmly, that messages need to be structured, well packaged in a way that helps the listener and receiver understand it. Our brains neuroscientists tell us are not wired or designed for lists of

34:04 an itemization of information. Our brains are actually designed for story. In fact, long term memory is called episodic memory episodes. So to me a story or structure is nothing more than a logical connection of ideas, a beginning, a middle and an end. The one we are all familiar with, if you've ever watched a television advertisement, or pitched an idea, you have used problem solution benefit. Here's a problem, a challenging issue. Here's how we solve it. And here's the benefit to you of having done so problem solution benefit. This is a very common structure. Like I said, we see it in advertising all the time. And it's very useful in that it helps us to know where to start know where to end. For me as the communicator helps me prioritize what I say for you as the listener. It helps package it up in a nice way. So we must structure our content. And there are myriad structures. In the book. The second part of the book, I have six spontaneous speaking situations in which each I assign or give at least one structure, not to say that this is the only way to communicate. But it is a way. And when you're in that moment, like, Oh, my goodness, how do I respond to this feedback request, you have something you can invoke to help you. In many ways, it's like a recipe, you can be a better cook. If you follow a recipe. Having a recipe gives you a place to start, you have freedom to move beyond the recipe to change things in the recipe, but it gives you a place to start. So my goal is not to have everybody speak and answer

35:42 questions the same way or give feedback the same way. It's to give people a tool to help them start, so they can then respond better in the moment. So for second part is about the first part of the second set of no methodology. Step five is about structure. Step six is about focus. How do you be concise? My mother has this saying that I think captures this well tell the time don't build the clock. Many of us are clock builders, either, because we are discovering what we want to say as we're saying it, or we want to demonstrate the depth of our thought and experience. Most people just want to know the time in the military, they say bottom line up front, just give us the time. And if we want to know the how the clock was built, we will ask you so structure and concision are what are critical to actually delivering good in the moment communication.

36:36 Daniel Nestle: It's no lie that I have trouble with concision. Matt Abrahams: And you said that very concisely? Yes, Daniel Nestle: I was thinking about it, I do. I do some clock building on occasion. And I am, you know, some of it is just pure curiosity, I'm working out where I want to go. And because I know there's a there there. And I'm trying to find that find it. And the exploration is somewhat fun for me. But it might not be very fun for my listeners, and for people that I'm talking with. And that's part of like focusing on the audience and understanding what they're looking for. I also really enjoy the idea of the recipe, one thing you said in the book, is that when you are, you know, when you when you, when you have a structure, it's not really for you, it's for the audience, as well as the audience. People are wired you said to, to, to their program to understand or listen to story. And putting everything in the framework of a story or have a have a clear, beginning, middle and novelist. And to do lists are great, but right you say that in the book too. But to have a actual structure where there is a beginning and a starting point and destination helps everyone to understand what you're trying to say. And that is what a communication is all about. Right? It's that it's if you don't convey the message you fail. And I really love that about the structures. That's Matt Abrahams: right. That's right. And thank you for summarizing that very eloquently. Oh, better than I think I did in the book. So thank you.

38:05 Daniel Nestle: Well, you know, it's it is part of to be fair, it is something that I do every day, but also, I have, I have, I have a deep interest in storytelling and in some of the methodologies that are out there. And I spent a lot of time working with a gentleman named Park Howell, I don't know if you ever come across Park. He he he called he has a great podcast called the business of the business of story. And, and he is a proponent of the abt framework, abt method. And but therefore very simple, right? So that's a classic, you know, Hero's Journey story. And you have your setup, you have your conflict, and you have your resolution.

38:50 And I think, you know, that fits in it's it's, it's problem solution benefit in a different way. It's yeah, it's, you know, compare contrasts conclusion in a different way. So I'm a big fan of frameworks, anything that can help me get the message across, Matt Abrahams: they give you a jumpstart, they make your life easier, right? It when you speak, period, you have to think about what to say and how to say it, the structure tells you or gives you an idea of how to say it. So now I have less effort, I just have to think about what to put in the structure. When I teach this to my students, I will do something not to show off, but I'll say, I'll ask my students to give me a topic. And they will give me a random topic. And within five seconds, I will give a five minute presentation based on whatever topic they throw out. And they're like, Wow, how did you do that? And I said, I cheated. I will use the structure. Once I all I do is take your topic, think about what's the best structure and then I just talk about it. And it makes it easier. Now I'm not saying everybody can do that or shouldn't do that. But there is a multiplier effect that catalyst effect when you have a structure because it takes the pressure off. You know how you will say it. It's like Got a map, I know where I'm going. Now, I don't necessarily know every turn, I'm going to take, but I know where I'm going to end up. And I know the general direction I'm going. And that's so helpful. I Daniel Nestle: love that. And I, I always forget it, you know, you're in the pressure of pressure situation. And this is part of that taking a breath and pausing and thinking, because if that, in that first breath, in that first pause, you can think through what that model needs to be. And, you know, doctor, heal

40:26 thyself is sometimes what I get accused of. But when the pressure is on, actually, you know it, I have, so I have a problem with deference. I'll just be right out there, where, where if I'm talking to somebody who is senior to me are much more accomplished than I am, you know, I get in my head and I, it's, it's impostor syndrome, maybe it used to be that a little bit getting better at that. But it's more like, I grew up my professional life, the first 15 years of my professional life was in Japan, where hierarchy is really important. And when a CEO or somebody who's my boss says to me, you know, Hey, get me the answer to some to XYZ, I am very deferential. So that affects my anxiety as well. But here, in modern culture here in the Americas, that's not the way it is, like people, it's a much flatter expectation. You know, in the end, when you're when you're overly deferential, you know, you don't necessarily convey the kind of trust or friendliness or openness that you know, some of the executives are looking for. So that's where the framework does get to be very helpful, because I don't have to worry about deference. I don't have to worry about social position, I just have to worry about giving a good answer. And it's very comforting. You know, to understand that, Matt Abrahams: I love it. Absolutely. That level of awareness is is something I strive to have all of my students feel comfortable with that that's great. It is such Daniel Nestle: a such a I don't know, such a benefit to understand that. And, you know, sometimes you have to wait till the questions asked, right, or what the situation is. You're talking about just how you give your student your students give you a topic. That reminds me of my time in Toastmasters, you do

42:05 the typical topics. Yeah. You know, not to brag, but you are looking at the the Tokyo region I forget the number the region but Tokyo region, something rather, Table Topics champion of, you know, I think it was 2002, or three or four or something like that. I was Oh, yeah. It was a long time because I was doing I was in a Toastmasters Club through gardener. I wasn't working for gardeners just in my neighborhood where I lived. And yeah, I did Table Topics. I love to eat, which are in Japanese in English and English today. Yeah, it was an English Club, which gave me an unfair advantage in this in this in the semifinals, I will admit, but I did really enjoy table topics. And sometimes when I'm, when I'm faced with a question that I, you know, I don't know how to answer immediately, I have to go back to what worked in the Table Topics time. And it's very helpful. And it's because we approach things with the expectation, or we have this expectation, going back to your second point, the second part of the methodology that we have to be perfect, right. And, and tabletop is is a great example of how you don't need to be perfect, you just have to get it get a story that makes sense.

43:19 And that either informs entertains or gets your point across in a succinct manner. And that is enough to really move the ball keep the ball moving forward, I think is the thing like you may, you'll get follow on questions if you don't quite get it right the first way but at least you're not going to turn off your audience or or kill the subject. You'll be able to keep the conversation going. Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. And I love that you are a big proponent of and beneficiary of Toastmasters. I what I'm a former Toastmaster myself, I think it's a great organization. I recently spoke at their international convention. I think Toastmasters is a great avenue to build communication skills, leadership skills, and especially spontaneous speaking skills.

44:08 Daniel Nestle: It's amazing. I don't know where I would you look back at the experience in your life and you think, you know, how did I? How did I get to where I am? Or where were the choices that I made? And you inevitably go through? Not, you know, to sort of counter against the idea of not dwelling on the past. Sometimes you do too well, and you think about the choices you made Toastmasters great choice, great choice. It's one of those great things, I think that's absolutely, yeah. So we've gone through these six, the methodology, and everybody needs to you need to read this book to get the details of all these things for sure. The second part of the book is practical applications. And I focused in on the pitch mostly, and on some of the small talk points. But and I also you know, I also really, really enjoy just the way that you lay out your examples. So are there any, like, if you think about the communications world, and in the marketing world, that pitch is one of the things I think that people like how do you influence somebody to get your, to get your either to sell your product, or can influence more often influence someone internally, you know, in a meeting and in a, in a contentious, you know, battle over over territory or presenting a new idea. So there's, you know, when you're in a space that's constantly changing, and you are justifying your survival because of a budget, or because of a new, you know, because of competition. Staying on top of that, with great, great on the spot speaking skills, I think puts you in such a

45:49 terrific advantage put you in such an advantageous position and helps you really earn the confidence and contribute value to your organization of the of the, of the five or sorry, six practical applications, what do you think communicators and marketers should be really focused on? From your perspective, Matt? Well, so Matt Abrahams: let me share I'll share the specific Well, I think actually, all of the all the six that I have mentioned in the book apply to people who are marketing, PR, etc. So you know, you're answering questions, you're giving feedback, you're introducing yourself, you're making toasts, you're making small talk, you're certainly pitching. So I think all of them apply the key across all of it. If you said, what's the one bit of advice that I would give to people in your profession and the profession I train people to be in communication, it is, know your audience, know your audience be focused on their needs, take the time to do the reconnaissance, reflection and research on the people you're communicating to, even if it's spontaneous, you're going into a situation where you're on a panel or a cocktail party, think about who's going to be there, what's important to them. You know, in the podcast, I do think fast talk smart. We have over 100 plus episodes, the number one most frequent bit of advice given by communication experts from all over the place, is know your audience, they say it in different ways. It's about you, it's about them. It's not about you be audience centric. My my favorite recent one is what is

47:24 the listening you are speaking into. All of these are different unique ways of saying we have to be focused on our audience. So I think the different methodologies and the different examples I give are certainly relevant. I'm happy to I want to articulate the one you used at the beginning if that's okay, please. Yeah. But otherwise, I mean, really, it boils down to know your audience. Yeah. When it comes to pitching, I have a structure that I developed out of necessity, that I think helps people very quickly and concisely put forth an idea, a product or a service yourself, if you're pitching yourself in its four sentence starters. And you used it beautifully when you started our conversation today. The four starters are what if you could, so that, for example. And that's not all? What if you could, so that, for example, and that's not all. And if you dissect these, you can see that they're doing very specific things. What if you could is a hook gets you involved gets you thinking about potential benefits. So that is your relevance. It's solving a problem. It's capturing an opportunity, for example, makes it real and concrete. We remember concrete detail better than high level information. And then finally, the and that's not all shows that this has legs, this is bigger than just what you're talking about. So I'd love to do something with you right now just to show people how this can work spontaneously. I'm going to put you on the spot and I'm going to ask you to give me a product or a service or

48:56 something. And I'm going to pitch it in this structure. And for everybody listening. This is not planned, whatever I'm presented with, I did not know I was getting well okay, say, Okay, Daniel Nestle: I know that you have this big improv background. And and I'm trying to, I'm trying to find something interesting. And I'm just going to look around my room and I'm going to say Unknown: whiteboards. Matt Abrahams: Ah, what if you could capture in the moment, your best, most creative ideas so that you and your team could further elaborate and execute on them. For example, imagine your next strategic planning meeting, where you want to make sure you're identifying your mission, vision values, and the steps you will take to achieve it. And that's not all. You can use this whiteboard device to not just capture ideas, but also as a fun tool to collect to connect people through having different people draw and capture information simultaneously. I I didn't know you're gonna ask me to do that I didn't know I'd ever have to pitch a whiteboard. But through that structure, it was able to get me through it. I don't know how long I took to think about my response, but at least you can assess if it was a compelling pitch or not. But do you see how it gave me a place to start?

50:17 Daniel Nestle: I did. And, you know, it reminds me reminds me of the game that you play in the book where you're where people have to go around and give the wrong names to things. And, and I, as soon as I said whiteboard, I was like, should I thought of something better? Because that's, that's what we do with a we strive for, you know, we don't think our answers are the right ones, or they are the good ones. And, but then I realized, as you were speaking, as, you know, it doesn't matter. The point is that you are able to take some random topic and, you know, deliver through a framework, a killer pitch, you know, and of course, if it was, if we're talking about software, or we're talking about energy, or we're talking about, like in, like, in my business, water, toilets, toilets, and showers, and faucets, different, the pitch will be different, but the fundamental structure works. And yeah, I love structuring the beginning of the show about it, because it felt a little bit more, you know, I guess, abstract, you know, because it's, it's, it was, it's a podcast, or a book or so outside, tried to figure out the best way to introduce the topic, and there's 1000 ways to do it. But I really, I hope that our listeners really understand how useful and how immediately applicable this these frameworks are. It's, it's, it's amazing. Sometimes, just just distilling things down to the simplest things. You know, our industry loves that, but it's really good to see it in action.

51:52 Unknown: Absolutely, yeah, Matt Abrahams: absolutely. These structures really do help. Yeah, really do help. And there's no magic. There's no magic. Daniel Nestle: Yeah, you know, now I we're running up on time here. I know that, you know, you've you've been to say you've been busy is a is an understatement. That's true. You know? I mean, it's not like you have a grad grad student to teach or book to promote, or podcast or podcast, Iran and all these things. I did want to get your thoughts on one thing that yes, is really on my mind, and certainly is probably on a lot of people's minds. That's that's tangential to the book. And that is, do you think this the the impromptu speaking skill, right, the skill of speaking on the spot is in decline, or is endangered by the advent of AI? And I'm saying this, because AI is a huge part of what I'm doing these days, especially generative AI. And I know a lot of people are focused on it. So you know, what? Has it affected your your thinking on any of this or the way that you teach it? Or, you know, do you have a vision of the future? Anything? Really, it's an open question.

53:02 Matt Abrahams: I am truly agnostic on this. I don't know, I am an optimist in general. So I do think AI is going to have a big impact on communication in our world. I don't think that's a very unique position. How it will impact is is interesting to me. So very early on when AI first when chat GPT first came out that my podcast team, we were thinking like, we've got to do something, it's going to impact communication, what should we do? And I actually interviewed it. Now today, that doesn't sound that interesting or unique. But this is several months ago, we actually typed in responses, got feedback, got it got its output, and then put it through a text to voice translator. So we actually had a conversation. Now that's a feature of the tool, but back then it wasn't. And the tool itself provided some interesting insight. We asked How are you going to impact communication and it said that it will make many things easier, but it will never replace human to human communication. There is a connection that happens between people that a tool like generative AI cannot capture. And I believe that to be true. Yeah. Now I personally am using generative AI in a few ways. So I encourage my students and I encourage anybody listening in your podcast who wants to get better at spontaneous speaking, to type in prompts, that then returned to you tests or challenges that you can use to practice. So here's a great thing, a job interview at a certain company say give me five questions for this role at this

54:33 company and it'll spit out reasonable questions as soon as you see one practice answering great tool, great way to practice spontaneity. Similarly, for my non native speakers, non native English speakers, I recommend that they use the tool to help them see other ways of saying things that they write, not to say it's the right way but to give them other options. And I as a teacher I use I believe a lot of the way we learn is by seeing practical tactical examples. I create many examples. In my class, I have used generative AI to create more examples, I think more is better off. And when it comes to examples, like I teach, and so I used to have three now I have eight chat GPT helped me create some of those. So I think there's a lot of potential for it. But I do have a lot of concern around veracity, how, how accurate is the information around the ability to actually think through stuff, arguments and ideas, rather than just typing in and seeing what comes back? So I'm agnostic, but optimist, Daniel Nestle: I'm in much the same boat. And I wrote down your use case, because it's, you know, I sometimes forget how you can us. First of all, I'm a very huge proponent of Gen AI I've been speaking about a lot I am, you know, it's part of, I believe it is an it's an inseparable part of the future of communications and a number in a number of ways. That said, My biggest worry is that it hollows out the entry level skills to the profession, and it encourages shortcuts. necess potentially, say to your point that, you know, the ability to construct arguments and reason, get those core skills that you

56:07 need to make those, those to, to have the foundations that you can speak on the spot and impromptu ways. You know, I think that people need to be a lot more mindful. So I think mindfulness is probably probably the only the way to kind of face it. But I do appreciate your opinion. And I know like, you know, I just wanted to really kind of understand more about, about where you're where you're thinking, because I think, you know, and as a way to kind of put a pin in this whole thing, that impromptu speaking, being able to be on the spot and speak extemporaneously, you know, at a meeting in a cocktail party, even at a funeral as you had in your book, yeah, you know, these are absolutely human things that, you know, nothing do, you don't have until, until, until I guess the implants take place in your head, you know, which I hope don't happen. I'm you know, it's a very human thing. And, and, and I think we should embrace it, and we should love it. And for that, I would encourage every single person who is listening to this show, to buy this book, you know, to get on, get on the think think faster, talk smarter train, and think fast talk smart podcast, train, as as quick as you can. Because, you know, it's a way to maintain your humanity to hyperbolized it a little bit. But I don't think it's an exaggeration. I think it's it's really important. So, you know, on that note, Matt, do you have any, any last words before I, before I kind of wrap us out?

57:41 Matt Abrahams: Well, thank you for the opportunity just to chat with you. I love speaking with a like minded individual who really sees the value and benefit of good things that I'm talking about. And has applied them I mean, beautifully, so. So thank you for that. It all comes down to this with repetition, reflection and feedback, we can get better at our communication, especially spontaneous communication, we have to take the time to practice, we have to reflect on what worked and what didn't work, and we have to get input and advice and guidance from trusted others. That's how we get better. I hope that some of the work I do can help people in their journey. I encourage people to check out Matt abrahams.com. I have a whole bunch of resources there that are all free. Check out the book, Think faster, talk smarter, listening to think fast, talk smart. And if you're on LinkedIn, find me. These are all ways that I hope I can engage with you to help you be a better, more confident communicator. That's Daniel Nestle: amazing Matt, and you scoop me a little bit I was just about to say go find Matt at Matt abrahams.com Look at look for him on LinkedIn and look for you know, there's there's some other Matt Abrahams make sure to find the guy that's at Stanford. That's the that's the giveaway. And Abraham's underscore Matt on Twixtor X, whatever you want to call it. Right? Exactly. You know, but generally speaking, the websites the best place to go, there's so much there, there's so many resources. Go there. And Matt, thank you very much for joining me and for helping me kind of initiate the second phase, or the next phase of my show. I really am so grateful to you. So thanks, please come back again.

59:11 Matt Abrahams: Happy to do so good. Good luck on everything. That's next. Thanks. Daniel Nestle: Thanks for taking the time to listen in on today's conversation. If you enjoyed it, please be sure to subscribe through the podcast player of your choice. Share with your friends and colleagues and leave me a review. Five stars would be preferred. But it's up to you. You have ideas for future guests or you want to be on the show. Let me know at Dan at trending communicator.com Thanks again for listening to the trending communicator.