The Profession That Makes Everyone Else Look Great - with Heather Campbell

00:00
Daniel Nestle
Welcome or welcome back to the trending Communicator. I'm your host, Dan Nestle. I've been thinking about the word great and what it's costing us. Our profession runs on it. We're all about great work, great campaigns, the award submissions, the trophy wall, the case studies about your amazing and innovative campaigns, the never mind all the great work it takes to keep your brand or your CEO out of the news. And you know, I've been there. I've done that. So, you know, if you know. But hell, ask around at the next conference and you'll get a sense of this great obsession. I bet just about everyone you talk to remembers their high school class rank, their college GPA split down by major and minor, every rejection and loss in their academic and professional lives. And probably not that many, by the way.

00:58
Daniel Nestle
You know, we are a profession of classic overachievers. I mean, when was the last time a communicator said, that was good? And stop there. I mean, I hear that and my conditioning kicks in and I'm waiting for the but to drop. That was good but. So when AI showed up, overachieving stopped being a habit and became a mandate. Do more with less turned into do everything with AI by eod. And I don't remember anyone stopping to ask what more means. And I don't remember anybody stopping to ask what everything means. We're in the profession that makes other people look great, but somewhere along the line, we delegated the discernment of great. I mean, if the company says more, we do more. Because God forbid we don't meet the criteria for great. So maybe the question was never how to be great.

01:51
Daniel Nestle
Maybe it's what good costs us to say out loud. And today's guest said it in an unlikely place. I mean, she spent eight years at espn, where she built the network's first Synergy team, the group responsible for making sure ESPN and the rest of Disney actually got along. And by the way, my listeners will know I've pretty much banned the word synergy on my podcast. But we're going to make a big exception today. It's all about context, people, really. And somewhere in there, her management team at ESPN started passing around the book, the famous book Good to Great. And she couldn't get past the title. That moment ultimately became a book of her own. Good is amazing. Stop over striving and celebrate being enough. Imagine that. Celebrating enough. Not celebrating enough. Celebrating enough. Something communicators really need to take to heart.

02:45
Daniel Nestle
She's now bringing this concept to Stages and companies everywhere. She's an author, a sought after speaker, a lifelong communicator and connector, a leadership and teamwork expert, and she also founded Ready Set Recover, where she helps people prepare for and recover from the often traumatic experience of being a surgery patient in our glorious healthcare system. Well, we're gonna dig into why good feels like failure to people who do what we do for a living. And whether AI is the way out or just the biggest amplifier yet. So making her debut here on the trending communicator as the author of Good is Amazing and CEO and co founder of Ready Set Recover, my new friend, Heather Campbell. Heather, welcome to the show. It's good to see you.

03:30
Heather Campbell
I'm so excited to be here. Thank you so much.

03:33
Daniel Nestle
That's great. Yeah, we've been playing a little bit of a dance with scheduling and rescheduling. I really appreciate that. But here we are at practically Labor Day. You know, I can't believe the year's already this far gone. And I have to say that I hear myself saying, you know, don't let perfect be the enemy of good all the time. And yet letting perfect being be the enemy of good in reality.

04:03
Heather Campbell
Oh, yeah.

04:04
Daniel Nestle
You know, I've been in startup, some people say startup hell. And that's definitely not it. I've been in startup euphoria, maybe because I love it. I love just like being driven by something. But, you know, I'll look at what I'm doing and I will start, you know, typing, coding, making funk, whatever I'm doing. And then like 17 hours are gone. They're gone.

04:30
Heather Campbell
Yep.

04:31
Daniel Nestle
And I don't know how that happens. I mean, you know, it's because I can't settle for good enough. And I think it's so important for communicators to really kind of sometimes, well, always recenter themselves and think, okay, what does good enough mean now in our profession? And can you know, can you get away with it? And how can you counsel people on it? And what happens when your CEO says, yeah, just bring me something, you know, it doesn't have to be great, it just has to be. It just has to be good, you know, that you never, you would never give him something that's just him or her something that's good. It would be, you know, you would always go for great. So with that long preamble, Heather, you know, you're, you've really devoted a lot of time and, and thought to this.

05:15
Daniel Nestle
Why don't we start by kind of going through how you got to that kind of. Aha. The. The. The good. Like, enough is like, let's celebrate enough. Good is amazing, as it were. And you know what brought you there? Little bit about your background and how you come to be here today.

05:35
Heather Campbell
Sure. Again, I'm so excited for this conversation. Me too. You are an excellent communicator. Thank you. You are a facilitator of communication.

05:46
Daniel Nestle
That's the goal.

05:47
Heather Campbell
Yes. But it's important and it's funny. I've been on a number of podcasts. Not all hosts actually know how to do that.

06:00
Daniel Nestle
Imagine that.

06:01
Heather Campbell
It's really funny to be invited onto a podcast and then think, wow, you've just misread me completely. You have not misread me completely.

06:11
Daniel Nestle
I think you're black.

06:11
Heather Campbell
You have completely read me. So how did I get here? It's funny, very often when you. Someone writes a book or someone's offering whatever it is they're offering, there was this moment, this. I was down, and it was horrible. It was awful. And then I saw the light, and now you should all come with me. That's not what happened. It's. It's everybody.

06:38
Daniel Nestle
Not everybody is Joseph Campbell Journey. Yeah.

06:41
Heather Campbell
My. My grandfather actually was Joseph Campbell. Not that Joseph Campbell.

06:47
Daniel Nestle
Oh, not that.

06:48
Heather Campbell
Just.

06:48
Daniel Nestle
Okay. I was.

06:50
Heather Campbell
It's fun. It's fun. My. My grandfather was Joe Campbell, who wrote a Harley Davidson and worked there for 47 years.

07:00
Daniel Nestle
Probably much more interesting than Joseph Campbell.

07:03
Heather Campbell
So fascinating. I actually. I credit my grandfather with my becoming a speaker, with my doing keynotes. I watched my grandfather in many different occasions, and he was never in the C suite at Harley. He was not someone who had hierarchical power, but that man could get in front of an audience and move them. He was there to make things better. He was there to offer an invite. I learned how to do that from my grandfather, Joseph Campbell.

07:39
Daniel Nestle
Good.

07:41
Heather Campbell
Yeah. And again, he's a part of my history. He's a part of the good side of all of this. The first chapter, actually, in my book talks about my being a sophomore in college, University of Wisconsin, which I just dropped my youngest off at. My youngest is a freshman at Wisconsin. Go Badgers. And. But I was there, and I got a call from my mom, and it wasn't our normal time to talk, so I was a little. Oh, what's this? And my mom proceeded to go down this horrible path of crying and. Ugh. And it ended with, Heather, please promise me that you will become President of the United States.

08:28
Daniel Nestle
Oh, just a small ask.

08:32
Heather Campbell
Could you. Could you just you used the word just earlier. That's. That's one of my words. I love to dive into that. But she said, you know, can you just become president? Something horrible had happened in the world. And she thought, not this. Maybe I couldn't solve this one because I was again, a sophomore in college. But at some point, and she is going down and just, you know, and I'm standing there thinking, oh, God, no, no. And then she does try to compromise and says, what about Senator? Could you become.

09:15
Daniel Nestle
No, how about immediately Congressmen?

09:18
Heather Campbell
Oh, my gosh. As she's devolving into this crying mess, I'm having this moment, like this epiphany moment of what do I need to do in life? What do I want to be? You know, and you're in college, and you're at this moment of, you know, playing all of these games with, who am I going to. What am I going to do? Who am I going to be? And I really came to this conclusion of I want to be happy and healthy. That's it. I want to be good. That's. That's it.

09:55
Daniel Nestle
People, you know, like, people stop you, like the. The plural you. When. When they ask, hey, what do you want to do with you? Like, when I was. Same time, college time, what do you want to do? Like, what do you want to be? And that's the answer that often comes up is like, I don't know. I just want to be happy. I want to. Yeah, live a good life. I want to do good things, but I don't have the plan yet. I don't know what's going on yet.

10:17
Heather Campbell
Right.

10:18
Daniel Nestle
But. But why do, like, those same people don't take that as a decent answer. Like, no, okay, fine, they. Okay, we know you're a good person, but that's not answer. I think it's answer.

10:30
Heather Campbell
Right.

10:30
Daniel Nestle
You know, because there's not just one answer, but I think it's definitely answer. And, you know, anyway, I'm glad you had that epiphany. But anyway, sorry to interrupt. I think. I think I want to. Want to learn about Joe and where this is going. Yeah.

10:44
Heather Campbell
Yeah. Well, it's interesting when you just talked about you had that answer or wanted to have that answer again. One of the chapters in the books talks about my talking with a young person who was about to graduate from college, and I didn't know the person very well. And so we're, you know, it's a neighbor's kid, and we're chit chatting and she says, oh, you know, I'm going back from my last semester and I can see her entire body tense up. And she just is bracing, she's bracing for my question, which is the only question an adult can ask her. And so I look at her and I say very sarcastically, so should I ask you the only question an adult can ask you right now? Should I go ahead and ask it? And she's like, sure.

11:33
Heather Campbell
And I said, so what are you gonna do as soon as you graduate? And she just looks at me and I said, I know it sucks, it's a horrible. And I said to be generous, it is an understandable question. Like you do have to do something. You're finishing this big thing, you have to do something, you're going to be an adult, you have to take care of yourself. They could be curious. The problem with the question though is it sounds like judgment and it doesn't sound like a question. It sounds like, prove to me that you are actually going to be able to be successful. And by successful I mean you are going to be on a track towards up, up, up. And you are going to get money, money, money. So what is your plan?

12:19
Daniel Nestle
22 Year old, it's a prejudgment for sure. Like it is, you know, something you said just, just made me, made something click in my mind with my daughter. Like I have, so I have two daughters and my younger one is her car's been in the shop, right? And so she's been borrowing my car to get to work. And I have, my car is a EV, right? It's an electric, like a Volvo EX30 I think if anybody's interested, it's the small one that has terrible range. Anyway, it's fun to drive. I love driving it. It's so much fun to drive these cars. And anyway, my daughter gets outta the car the other day. This is a little thing, but she gets outta the car the other day and she says, and I say, so how'd you like driving the car?

13:05
Daniel Nestle
And I could see like she was immediately frustrated by me asking that question. Maybe she had a rough day, I don't know. But she's like, it's a car, dad, it's just a car. Got me from where I need to be to from where I need to go. And you know, I was thinking about this and later she said, later my wife made the mistake of asking the same question. By the way, anybody out there who's parenting try to get some communication going between, you know, whoever is involved in the parenting process to make sure you only ask a question one time and that's it. So my wife asked the same question. And then my daughter, she's like, gets very upset. It's just a car. Leave me alone. And then like I'd had a chat with her afterwards. It just. Not about that.

13:57
Daniel Nestle
Something different because you have to kind of back into things sometimes. And she goes. And I said, so, by the way, you seemed a little upset when I asked you about the car. She's like, look, I know that you love driving that car. I know that you have a great time with that car. But what am I supposed to say? You want me to say that, oh, yeah, it was kind of interesting or oh, geez, I really hate it, One or the other. But honestly, I don't want to give you the satisfaction. That's what she said. I don't want to give you the satisfaction. And so it ties exactly what you're saying.

14:34
Daniel Nestle
You're at a certain stage in your life and it could be a student, it could be now where you're speaking with people and you know that they sort of already have an image in their head of what the answer is going to be. It really makes it a lot less pleasurable to answer those questions.

14:51
Heather Campbell
Yes.

14:52
Daniel Nestle
You know, I try not to do that on the show, by the way,.

14:54
Heather Campbell
But yeah, I, I actually in this, you know. So when I say this and this girl again, Brussels, but then kind of laughs, I said, let's come up with answer right now. And she says, no, I don't know what. No, no. I'm like, you don't have to know. Let's come up with answer though, because that's the issue. The issue is the question being asked in a way that you don't feel like you can give the answers that you have. I said, so what if the next time a well meaning, I think most of us are well meaning adult says to you, what are you going to do as soon as you graduate?

15:28
Heather Campbell
You say, well, I'm going to reflect on what I've been learning for the last four years and figure out what I can do right now and what I might be able to do in the future in order to put a roof over my head, food in my belly, and pay for health insurance because I live in the United States, by the way, adult, what do you do on a regular basis to do those things? And she just looks at me and says, oh, my God, could I really say that? And I'm like, you can say whatever you want to answer the question?

16:04
Daniel Nestle
I hope she took a career in pr, because that's like formula number one for how to answer questions from. From that you don't want to answer. Just answer however you want to and then turn it back on. On the person. And you gave her a nice set of talking points.

16:18
Heather Campbell
Great. Yes. Yeah.

16:21
Daniel Nestle
So, okay, so you're. You're. You're talking to the. You're interviewing people for your book. You're talking about stuff. So let's. I keep interrupting your journey, like, jumping in. So how'd you get from there? You know, from. From Wisconsin to, like, to good is amazing. I mean. Yeah, you went through. I mean, the career through. From in. Through espn. It's a. It's a dream job for, I don't know, millions of people out there. And by the way, Chris Laplaca, who was the head. Former head of comms at. ESPN, is the one who introduced us.

16:58
Heather Campbell
Yes.

16:59
Daniel Nestle
You know, I just want to put that out there. Shout out to Chris. Yeah. So, like, that's a. You know, that's an odd journey, and it's an odd way to just suddenly to decide, you know, what good. To create sucks. Let's go with good. Good is amazing.

17:12
Heather Campbell
Yeah. So again, I. I start with, I have to take care of myself as an adult. That's all I have to do. Again, roof over my head, food in my belly, and health insurance. The decisions I make around those things create the next decisions I have to make. So I graduate school. I meet a boy. Follow that boy to San Francisco. That boy is now my husband 35 years later.

17:43
Daniel Nestle
Congrats.

17:45
Heather Campbell
He gives me a great example of, again, following who you are and what you want to do and then recognizing the decisions that have to happen. He comes home from work one day, we move to San Francisco, we get jobs. Because you do need to get jobs. So we both have a job. He comes home one day and says, so Schwab offered me a promotion. He was working at Charles Schwab. And I said, that's awesome. And he said, yeah. So I quit. And I said, oh, did. Did they offer you a raise, too? And I said, they did. He said, they did? Yeah. I'm like, oh, those b. Those horrible. What?

18:27
Daniel Nestle
Sons of bitches.

18:29
Heather Campbell
I'm sorry. Could you explain? And he looks at me and says, I don't want to do this job. I want to be an entrepreneur. And if I take this job, we're going to go take that bigger apartment that we looked at just for fun the other weekend. And then we're going to have that money, and then we're probably going to get more things that need that kind of money. And, and, and now I'm at Charles Schwab and they offer you a sabbatical after six years. So I'll have to stay for at least six years because I don't want to, you know, let go of that free. And it's like. But I don't want to do this. So I quit and I said, I get it and I love you. If you could just maybe talk to me next time because we got to eat.

19:19
Heather Campbell
We do. Like, we do have to. But it was a beautiful moment of you get to do. Not the, not the linear. We're, we're so focused in our world on linear progression.

19:34
Daniel Nestle
Yep.

19:37
Heather Campbell
I was. When I, when I left my job in San Francisco, Steve, my, again, my husband, then boyfriend, now husband, wanted to go to business school, so we got into nyu. So we're now going to move from San Francisco to New York. I give Wells Fargo bank four months notice because I'm not leaving. It's not a bad reason. I'm not going to competitor. I'm leaving. I'm going across the country and I'm leaving. They offer me if I will stay, they will send me to New York every month for, and put me up for a week, and I can work in the New York office for a week if I will stay. Mm, That's a pretty amazing offer.

20:19
Daniel Nestle
Pretty amazing.

20:20
Heather Campbell
25 Years old and not sure how you are going to make any money in New York City because said boyfriend is going to be going to business school and said girlfriend is going to have to actually have make enough money to support both of them. But I didn't want to do it. Yeah, it wasn't right for me. Working at Wells Fargo was an incredible experience. I learned a lot. I'm not a banker, actually. At one point, it was so funny. So I'm working in small business banking at Wells Fargo Bank. You know, we're on a big off site and the SVP announces exciting news. We are going to move to business casual five days a week. Everyone is thrilled. You know, this is 25 years ago, 35 years ago, so people are thrilled.

21:14
Heather Campbell
My boss comes and turns to me and says, so this is really gonna affect you, huh? And I look at him and say, unbeknownst to you, I've been piloting the business casual program for the last two and a half years. I have proven that, in fact, women do not need to wear Nylons. You in the, you know, following that logic, do not need to wear a tie. You don't have to thank me. Just enjoy it. I've. I have gotten. I've been okay playing outside the lines. I've been okay not following the musts. It doesn't always work out. I'm not everyone's cup of tea. But for the most part, when I. Again, back to being a good communicator, when I can communicate how I'm going to still make good things happen even if I'm not wearing nylons. Yeah, it works.

22:17
Daniel Nestle
You know, the framing that you've. That you chose, even in these vignettes, the framing that you choose, the way that you communicate, the. I'm not gonna say like it's not bad news, but the way that you communicate resistance or opposition is not felt as resistance or opposition at all. And it's like communicators, I think we. We get this. Most of us kind of get it. Don't always. Aren't always good at it, you know, but it feel. It sounds like the key ingredient almost. I don't like boiling anything down into single causes. But confidence has a lot to do with it. Like, you seem to be very confident about, you know, even in retrospect, looking at these decisions you made, seems that confidence played a very big role in this if. If I'm. If I'm not mistaken.

23:07
Heather Campbell
Yeah. I think combination confidence and back to, you know, watching my grandfather and my.

23:18
Daniel Nestle
Mom,.

23:20
Heather Campbell
They didn't necessarily follow the path, but they took care of themselves. Sure. So, you know, when. So, you know, continuing on. We moved. We moved to New York. I find consulting work. Basically, I find a couple of different things. They don't work out the way I want them to. So I'm consulting. And while my then boyfriend is going to business school, he says you should go to business school. You would hate a lot of it, but you would love more of it. You should go. Okay. And so I apply. The last two places I applied to, I went from the you shoulds, you know, so I'm writing the applicant. You know, this is. This is how you go to business school. And. And this is who I am. And yes. And by the time I do my last two applications, it's.

24:22
Heather Campbell
I wrote an essay for NYU that I'm a potter by hobby. I make wonderful pottery. Oh, beautiful listeners out there.

24:34
Daniel Nestle
Heather just showed me is gorgeous. I would drink beer from it. Copy but beautiful. Yes, thank you.

24:42
Heather Campbell
So I wrote an essay about how I assumed business school was going to be Just like pottery, taking a pottery class and talked about how you are in a community and you have to work with people in that community. And sometimes you create something and someone in your community kind of bumps it on the shelf and it changes similarly to working in a group. Sometimes you start moving down a path and you think it's going to go one way on a project and it goes another way on the project. So I. I made all of these comparisons. I truly showed who I was when I. I then got an interview actually at NYU with the Dean of admissions. And she said, I read all of your stuff, and I really feel like I've got to know you.

25:31
Heather Campbell
And I have to say, why are you going to business school? And I said, good, you did get to know me. That.

25:42
Daniel Nestle
Yeah.

25:42
Heather Campbell
That's. That's awesome. Yes. It doesn't make any sense. The. The people I know are like, why are you going to business? You know, I was. I was a marketing person. I was a. I was a free. I was a free spirit. I said, I want to have a better foundation in the language and the. And the mindset. I had just pitched an idea to Entrepreneur magazine and another company, and it had gone great. I could get the people in the room, I could get the conversation going. I could set an editorial calendar. And then it came to doing the dollars, and the deal fell apart. And I don't actually want to do the dollars, but I want to understand the dollars enough that I could be a part of the conversation. So I got in. I went to NYU as well.

26:38
Heather Campbell
You had said something about knowing your GPAs.

26:43
Daniel Nestle
Oh, yeah.

26:44
Heather Campbell
In the intro, It's. It's very interesting to me. And my. My oldest at one point with. With grades, and things said to me, you know, grades actually do matter, Mom. This is my kid telling the parent, mom, they actually do. And then. And then they said, but I know my joy in life is not going to be da, da, but my gpa. Again, I'm at nyu. I went for good. The whole time there, I took classes that were interesting. I took, you know, listened to professors who I heard were amazing. I followed a path of what's interesting, what's developing, what. What makes me feel good, what makes me sometimes not feel good. And I'm a little nervous, but I did this.

27:44
Heather Campbell
So much so that I got a letter in April, before the May, that I was going to graduate, saying I wasn't going to graduate.

27:55
Daniel Nestle
Okay.

27:58
Heather Campbell
So NYU sends me this letter. I go to the bursar's office, and I'm like, Hi. I got this letter. And they say, oh, yes. And I say, so two things. Number one, I'm sure you just ran a tickler file that created this letter for all of us who don't have enough credits in their major and don't have a GPA to support blah, blah. I've taken. So you sent it out now. I can't do anything about it now. Like, it's April. And she said, oh. And I said, if you sent it in January, I could have done something. Maybe you send them in January next year. And she's like, oh, that's a really good idea. I'm like, oh, you know, take it. I said, also, I've been to classes. I've been coming to school. I've taken full loads.

28:55
Heather Campbell
Could I be in major in something else? Do I have the gpa? And the. She's like, oh, you could be a management major. And I said, fabulous.

29:08
Daniel Nestle
Switch it up. Let's.

29:09
Heather Campbell
Is there a form? She's like, there is. I said, let's fill it out. So, yeah, so. So there's. I mean, I did have fear. I did not have confidence completely in going there, but I also. Again, back to good. I think I can get to good in most situations. You know, I thought I was going to be a marketing major just because I was a marketing person. Turns out I didn't take many marketing classes because I already knew marketing, so I took classes around things I didn't know.

29:46
Daniel Nestle
Yeah.

29:47
Heather Campbell
But, yeah, it's.

29:49
Daniel Nestle
It's.

29:51
Heather Campbell
Believing in yourself enough and also believing in the support system you have around you to try. And again, back to the very beginning of when you started talking about communication and good. Originally, I wanted to entitle my book Good Period Enough Period.

30:14
Daniel Nestle
Oh.

30:16
Heather Campbell
The challenge with that is it's a little clever. And if you miss the period, you miss the whole thing. Then you think I'm talking good enough, and I'm not. We've maligned the word good. We think of good as bad.

30:31
Daniel Nestle
Good is not good.

30:32
Heather Campbell
Good is good. Just good. Yeah. I recently was in New York, and I'm sitting next to two NYU students, and I can't help but listen to what they're saying. And they're talking about a grade and how one of them got a B minus, and, you know, I gotta be minus and what's gonna happen? And then the other one's like, well, wait a minute. Isn't an F? Like, really, really bad? Like, isn't an. Isn't a D? Like, you almost didn't isn't C supposed to be like, why is a B minus? Why are we. And I couldn't take it. I just turned to both of them. I'm like, you are absolutely talking about the right thing. Here is my book. You both, you know, you are right. You are correct. But it gets scary.

31:28
Daniel Nestle
Well, good, you know, people, if we go back to the intro and just other things that we've been saying, good, you're right. Good doesn't mean good. Like, good is code for do better.

31:41
Heather Campbell
Right.

31:41
Daniel Nestle
It's not. It's not. It doesn't mean bad, but it means bad if you're an overachiever. It means bad if what you've done isn't ready.

31:50
Heather Campbell
Right.

31:51
Daniel Nestle
Because now you know you have more work to do.

31:53
Heather Campbell
Right.

31:53
Daniel Nestle
And you know, or you and you feel like you've displeased somebody. And that's the other thing, is people pleasing. Right.

32:00
Heather Campbell
That's the critical component here. Again, when I'm talking with people, and I'm often talking with a lot of overachievers, if there's something you actually want that is higher than high, if you want to be a gold medalist in the Olympics and that is your passion, if you have this driving passion. Awesome.

32:26
Daniel Nestle
Yeah.

32:26
Heather Campbell
I'm not saying don't. If you have that. Phenomenal. I'm going to check in with you real quick. Is it your thing, though? Like, I'm just checking.

32:39
Daniel Nestle
Yeah.

32:39
Heather Campbell
Is it your passion? Is it what if no one else was looking, if no one else was ever going to ask about it, praise you, or if no one else cared? Do you still care about it?

32:54
Daniel Nestle
Yeah.

32:54
Heather Campbell
Because if not, maybe it's not your. Your thing. Maybe. Maybe you could let go. And if it is, which it. For some people it is. If it is, awesome. But getting to that place is hard. Yeah. So how are you going to make mini milestones along the way so you get to stay mentally healthy and happy along the way?

33:25
Daniel Nestle
I can't imagine that you're gonna find almost anybody in corp comms or marketing even who are working for a brand. You know, there are exceptions, but who are working for a brand, especially in the B2B world, right. Who are just like, yes, this is my passion. This is it. I have found it. I mean, if you're in comms, if you're an engineer and you're working for an engineering company, different story. But you're a communicator, a marketer, your job is to tell stories in one way, shape or form, and like a chameleon, adapt yourself to you Know, understand and accept and then advocate for whoever is paying your money. Right. Whoever's paying you. And I hear so many different things. No, it's never about the brand. It's about the job itself. It's about being able to make other people look great.

34:27
Daniel Nestle
It's about the challenge of putting together a story. The challenge of X, the challenge of Y. It's about. Oh, it's so much action. There's so many things happening there, but none of it really is. I love toilets. I really do. Like, I worked for. And I say that because I worked for a big toilet company.

34:45
Heather Campbell
Yeah.

34:46
Daniel Nestle
Essentially. Although my ex employers will hate that it was a water technology company whose largest brand is American Standard. So, like, you know, we do toilets.

34:59
Heather Campbell
Right.

34:59
Daniel Nestle
You know, and I could never be passionate about, you know, how miraculous a flush is. But I, I did love the people I worked with and, you know, I liked some of the things the company was doing and I could get in, I could get on board with quite a bit, and the work was varied and challenging and all that. But you know what? You know, you separate from a company like that, almost any company, and you don't miss that part. You miss the people, you miss the paycheck. You know, so unless you're like, you know, you've been, I guess, a pianist all your life and you are a communicator, you never had what. You never really went the pro route, but you just love piano and you're a communicator and you become the CCO of Steinway. You probably love that job. Very rare.

35:59
Daniel Nestle
So, you know, to these people, and I think to me included, and I'll include myself in that, maybe that's one of the reasons why we would never, ever settle for. Or like, even if we thought were, we would never settle for good enough, you know, because we had to compensate for our lack of passion in the brand. I am totally speaking out of turn. I know there's people who are going to be like, no, Dan, that's not right. But, okay, if I'm not super passionate about. About the brand, I'm gonna be passionate about whether I use, you know, a. An EM dash here or I'm gonna be passionate about. About the flow of this story or does this narrative kick? You know, there's so many different things. So.

36:46
Heather Campbell
Yeah, what you're talking about right there when I. So I did graduate from NYU, but before I graduated, I get a call from McKinsey. So the consulting company, you know, the consulting company.

37:01
Daniel Nestle
Oh, yeah. We will all lay down for McKinsey.

37:04
Heather Campbell
Right? So I get a call from McKinsey asking me to come in for an interview. And I say, I'm sorry, I think you have the wrong person. I didn't put my resume in to come in for your interviews. And they said, oh, and yeah, we know we got your information from someone else. We'd like you to come in. And I. Wow.

37:25
Daniel Nestle
Yeah.

37:26
Heather Campbell
Wow. Okay, cool. Thank you. And they said, so since you didn't apply, we do need to ask you a couple of questions. I'm like, sure. What's your current GPA in your major? I don't know my major. Excuse me. I'm not really sure. Okay. What's your gpa? I don't know. I don't know. Okay, what did you get on the GMAT? 360. I got a 360 on the GMAT. Silence. There's a mythical 600 that you have to get over. That doesn't sound right, does it? She's like, no, it does not. I said, why don't you tell me all of the information you need and I will get it for you so that it is the correct information. So she tells me, you know, gmat, da, da, all this stuff. I'm like, okay. We make the appointment.

38:29
Heather Campbell
Like, okay, I hang up the phone and I go again to pottery, because I'm taking a pottery class. So I go to pottery and I'm a little bit. A little bit like this. Shaken a little. And I sit down and I cannot center a piece of clay to save my life. I have been a potter for gear. I cannot. And so I kind of sit back and I think, all right, am I scared? Because this is something I hadn't planned. I'm not. I haven't practiced to take a consulting interview. Or is it wrong? And I really sat there. Now, back to your. The. What you were talking about in terms of being a PR person, a communicator about a brand.

39:17
Heather Campbell
I knew that when I left and got a job, I wanted to be really proud of the product or service that I worked on. Right. And while McKinsey as a product is amazing, I knew that I was going to be a PowerPoint person on whatever brand they put me on. I didn't want that. I also knew that I really like having a 9 to 5ish job.

39:45
Daniel Nestle
Yeah.

39:45
Heather Campbell
I like being able to do other things. Not going to be able to do that. So I went through all of these things and I was like, okay, so I'm going to Go and do this interview, and one of two things are going to happen. I mean, they're going to fall on my face, which is not going to feel good. Or worse, they're going to offer me the job.

40:05
Daniel Nestle
Yeah.

40:06
Heather Campbell
And then I'm going to have to explain to myself how I am saying no to a whatever thousand dollars signing bonus and it wasn't right for me. It's the best. It wasn't the best for me. So I called them up and I said, you literally had my head spinning. This is the kindest compliment. I unfortunately can't tell any of my friends that this has happened because they will think I'm an idiot. But I am going to say thank you, but no to this interview. Right now we have so many great students at NYU who you should talk to who are going to just blow your mind. If sometime many years from now I'd like to come work for you, I hope you would take my phone call. But right now, this is not the right role for me.

40:58
Heather Campbell
And so I'm gonna just say thank you. So,.

41:04
Daniel Nestle
I mean, you must have shocked them. But I'm sure they were really grateful for that though, because you saved them tons of time. And time is everything. Right. And you know, like self awareness, self understanding is a commodity. Is a rare. It's not a commodity. It's a rare characteristic or rare gem these days. These days. Or treasure, I think. And, and you know, I think I keep hearing these. This kind of thread that's running through that. You know, there's. I said confidence earlier. I think self awareness is a big. Is. Is either a result of that or a major cause of that. You know, whatever. What. I'm not the psychiatrist. But in order to be able to settle for good.

41:53
Daniel Nestle
See, here I use the word settle, but in order to be able to be satisfied with good and move on, I don't think you can get there if you are not confident and self assured and self aware. I mean, we can talk about fear in a second because I think that's an important part of this whole thing too. But, you know, fear seems to me to drive perfectionism more than anything else.

42:24
Heather Campbell
But.

42:27
Daniel Nestle
Where the fear is placed, I think, you know, what are you afraid of? Is the answer you have to. Is the question you have to answer. And the answer to that question will tell you, well, if I'm afraid of this, then I'm going to go all in and be the perfectionist. If I'm afraid of this, then I'll just do. That's good enough there. Because you know, it's what do you want to lose? Or what are you afraid of losing?

42:51
Heather Campbell
It's interesting though, what you're talking, like, what you're putting out there right now. Self satisfaction, happiness, feeling good. In some ways, it doesn't matter if you've reached good or if you've reached amazing. If you're not happy with it, if you're not comfortable with it, if you always think there's more, it doesn't matter. Like, I could tell you did great, amazing work, but if you don't think it is enough, it doesn't matter.

43:27
Daniel Nestle
Yeah.

43:28
Heather Campbell
So what I'm proposing with good is amazing is number one, you flip a little bit and rethink it. Doesn't have to be great, great. But the other piece to this is you are the main character of your life. You get to decide what's good. And again, you could use the word great, all of it. It's language. I use good because I'm fighting against this. This challenge that we've created for ourselves. But whatever it is, you get to decide. And my hope is when you've reached moments, you celebrate it.

44:19
Daniel Nestle
Yeah.

44:19
Heather Campbell
You know, and one of the things I write about in the book, again, actually, in writing the book, I had talked to my developmental editor, you know, so I'm writing the book and it's. Which is a hard process. Like, I had never written a book before.

44:39
Daniel Nestle
It was easy. We'd all do it, right.

44:42
Heather Campbell
It's really interesting to do. So I hand over, you know, the manuscript. I'm so nervous. I hand over the manuscript to the developmental letter and I say, you should know my goals while you are doing this. You know what I want to achieve. So my number one goal is to entertain and inspire people. I just. I want them to feel good in reading my book. Number two, I don't want to be an asshole.

45:12
Daniel Nestle
Yeah, it's a good one.

45:14
Heather Campbell
Because when you are suggesting, you know, you. This is the way to go, you usually say, because this is not the way to go. And you usually make fun of not the way to go, or show that not the way to go is really a jerky way to be, or whatever it is, the development. I had a great editor. Positive stuff, funny stuff. Gotta dig deeper here. At one point wrote, this is a little asshole adjacent. Might want to rethink this one. And then again, on my goals, I said, I want to validate myself so that I can speak more. I want people to pay me to come and talk to their people. And having A book makes that easier. People are like, oh, wrote a book. Okay, come and talk to us.

46:06
Heather Campbell
And then I said, number four, I would like to sell some books mostly because if I want these ideas to get into people's heads and hearts, the book usually needs to get in their hands.

46:17
Daniel Nestle
Yeah, in theory.

46:19
Heather Campbell
So. But. But recognizing all of those pieces, even for me, like, this is my copy of my book. I'm holding it up now. If you're watching, it is. It is worn. That's because I have to go back to the book. It is hard to remember myself, you.

46:43
Daniel Nestle
Know,.

46:46
Heather Campbell
If you know sports, if you know espn. Chris Berman was kind enough to write one of the blurbs for the back of my book. Yeah, Chris is a phenomenal, amazing, wonderful person. And I saw him right after the book came out, and he's like, heather, how's it going? New York Times bestseller. And I looked at him and I said, chris, I love you. It's not going to be a New York Times bestseller, most likely. And that's okay. Yeah, like, that's kind of the point of the book, as a matter of fact. And we both laughed about that. But. But I have to remind myself of that. Like this. This is not. I literally wrote the book. It's not done in my head and my heart. Still.

47:39
Daniel Nestle
It's. It's. It's important. It's. I mean, I said at the outset, I think, for our profession, for the. For people who are storytellers, who are writers, who are, you know, making other people look great or brands look great as their remit, it's very difficult to then be confident enough to have the discernment and the judgment to say, this is great. This is good enough for me. It's great for the brand. Because, like, at the. However you. You decide what that scale is. Right, Right, what? That at the end of the day, you're not going to. The final product has to be great in the eyes of the client. But that doesn't necessarily mean that it's great to you and. And discovering that, like. And sometimes it's the opposite. Sometimes it's great to you. And the client's like, I don't understand this.

48:30
Daniel Nestle
This is no good. Like, I don't see where you're going with this. It doesn't have enough pop. Whatever. I don't know, whatever they would say. And it drives me crazy. It's driven me crazy my whole career, but it drives me more crazy now because I see it. I see it in myself. I see it in people. I Deal with and in the youngsters of the world with my daughter, et cetera. But it's just like we say, don't let perfect be the enemy of good. We always say this, right? Oh, no, chill out. Don't worry. Don't worry. And that doesn't stop anybody from work. I mean, what favors am I doing somebody when I say don't let perfect be the enemy Good. I think the only thing I'm saying is I'm not gonna judge you very harshly or that's the promise I'm putting out there.

49:21
Heather Campbell
But. Right. There are a couple things on that. Number one, are your actions actually.

49:30
Daniel Nestle
Backing it up?

49:31
Heather Campbell
Backing up that, you know. So are you saying it but then asking for four revisions? Are you saying it but saying at 6:00'? Clock? Okay, I'm so glad we're going to talk more about this in an hour.

49:43
Daniel Nestle
Yeah.

49:44
Heather Campbell
So are your actions actually supporting that as mentors, as bosses, as people that everyone is watching? What are people seeing? That's one piece of it. The other piece that it just makes me think of right away is one of the things I write about in the book is naming my inner critic.

50:06
Daniel Nestle
I love this idea.

50:08
Heather Campbell
Yeah. Her name is Blanche. She talks to me like this.

50:15
Daniel Nestle
Oh, you know, what a great name for a crit. Like, I feel I'm of two minds about Blanches of the world. I had the most lovely, My father's cousin who was essentially like an elder uncle to me. I mean, my father's older cousin, his wife was named Blanche and she was the sweetest woman. Ira and Blanche. Ira and Blanche. I mean, oh my God, you can write a book.

50:43
Heather Campbell
I can see them now.

50:44
Daniel Nestle
You can see them. But actually Ira didn't really like. Ira was not like. Ira was a big tough guy. Right. But, but Blanche was a sweetheart, so. But yet I think she even knew that the name Blanche is, can be a little grating in the mind. But anyway, just a side note, I love your inner critic, Blanche. So what does Blanche say? What does she.

51:07
Heather Campbell
Oh, Blanche can be Blanche actually, again, wrote the book, named her. I know it, I see it. Usually I can. She's, she's there a little less now because she's become funny to me. I, I can name her, I can shut her down and still though she can raise her head. So I'm, I have been doing you are amazing parties all over the country, inviting people in, working with groups, talking about. We're actually all amazing and it's your story and I'm doing these wonderful Things and talking about good and good is amazing. And you're enough and all this stuff. And I'm up there and I'm on and someone in the audience has read my book, which is so much fun. Usually people haven't read the book when they're in the audience. So they've read my book.

51:57
Heather Campbell
And she says, oh, Heather, your book was so easy to read. And blanched immediately. Told you. You're stupid. Stupid. You are so dumb. Your book was so easy to read. I told you. You didn't add enough points. You didn't have enough science. You are an idiot. Dum, dum, dum. I am literally standing on stage during a youa are Amazing party with I don't even know how many people in the audience. She is beaming at me. And I have to say, Blanche, shut up. She's not saying I'm stupid. She's saying my book was accessible. She's saying that my book enveloped her, that she could read it and joyously get through it. Shut up, Blanche.

52:46
Daniel Nestle
Shut up, Blanche. But that might be the title of this episode. Shut up. Go ahead.

52:50
Heather Campbell
But it's hard to do it is exactly what you were talking about in terms of are we giving ourselves the permission? Sometimes we do have the bosses who are just really crazy, but often it's ourselves and or not going back to the boss with the storyline of why this makes sense.

53:19
Daniel Nestle
Yeah.

53:21
Heather Campbell
Your earlier just made me think of again, the jobs that we do in communications and advertising. And I remember presenting some ads to a product manager. And the ad basically had an image above the top and then some copy going all the way down and then a lot of white space. And the product manager saw the spot, saw the ad and was like, no, that's horrible. We are wasting all of this space. We should be using this for more. And again, you assess. It was a beautiful ad. It did everything we needed it to do. And I'm sitting there in the moment and I say, well, this is a direct response ad. And we've got the 800 number at the bottom. And that's so that they can take notes when they call. And they're like, oh, that's brilliant.

54:14
Heather Campbell
And I said, yes, that's our agency. Our agency is so phenomenal. It got me to the yes. I needed to get to in a way that made them feel. I don't need to explain your eye visually. And open space gave them an attitude that they needed.

54:33
Daniel Nestle
Yeah. And yeah, I mean, a lot of us have had similar experiences where, you know, it's amazing. You and it. And. And it's like, duh, Break it into something that they can relate to. You have to relate to the audience and what you say has to be relevant and things. Good things will happen. You know, it is. It's. It's. It's miraculous that, that. That's the way it is. I've been thinking about something said earlier about. About asshole adjacent.

55:06
Heather Campbell
It just keeps.

55:07
Daniel Nestle
I mean, it keeps popping up my mind and look, this is. This may feel like a little bit of a detour, okay? But it's related to what? To something you said earlier. Because, you know, I've been. I've never thought of it this way where, you know, I mentioned in the. In the upfront that AI has changed the game. And I'm going to ask you about the role of AI in the perception of. Is this good enough or not?

55:40
Heather Campbell
Right?

55:41
Daniel Nestle
But my. Kind of. The thing that stuck out at me was this. There's a lot of talk now and there's always talk about, oh, I can tell when something's written by AI or, oh, yeah, though there's an EM dash, it's definitely written by AI or whatever. Like, it's nonsense. People really don't know. I mean, sometimes, unless you're a heavy user or, you know, you use it all the time, you could. Then I. I'm. I could be 99.999% sure when I look at something in three seconds, one second. But, you know, somebody sees an EM dash, like AI. Not true. Totally not true. But there are tells.

56:17
Daniel Nestle
You know, there's a lot of stylistic things that AI does, but I think if you bundle it all together, if you take all the things that AI does that make it sound like AI, Especially when you're writing like, quote unquote, thought leadership work, right? Things that are where you're profess, where you are basically establishing or promoting a point of view, all that stuff. You kind of take those different patterns and the EM dashes and all this stuff, and you know what it comes down to? It's asshole adjacent. Like, if I read. If I read something and it's asshole adjacent, I'm like, that's right. This is why I get pissed off with my AI sometimes. Like when it takes my draft or it takes my ideas and puts something together, I'm like, you know, that sounds. I'm like, no, I don't like this pattern.

57:07
Daniel Nestle
This is no good. I don't write this way. But ultimately, I think you're onto something, Heather. I don't like it because it's asshole adjacent.

57:16
Heather Campbell
Yes.

57:16
Daniel Nestle
Right.

57:17
Heather Campbell
Yes.

57:18
Daniel Nestle
So with that little aside, or maybe it's connected, like what do you think AI is doing for number one, for people's understanding of what good is and what great is. And I guess secondly, what permissions they're giving themselves to put something out there that is maybe not as great as it should be.

57:44
Heather Campbell
Yeah. What's funny is actually I think their perception is they're getting to great. Rather getting rather than the good that they have. I think most people think I need to be great. I'm only so I'm not even good. I'm so. So I'm going to use AI to be great. I think that's the perception, which again, I think most of people are pretty good.

58:15
Daniel Nestle
Yeah.

58:16
Heather Campbell
You know, and not everyone is a writer. Like there's a reason for. Sure. Not everyone is a writer. Not everyone should be. It's funny, even within organizations, thinking about how organizations work, you know, you're good at sales. You're really good at sales. You're excellent at sales. You should be a sales manager. Why?

58:39
Daniel Nestle
Why?

58:40
Heather Campbell
I'm not a manager. I'm good at sales. You're. You're an okay writer. You're great at managing people. You know, the things that, the way we move people into roles that they shouldn't have, that they never wanted. But you still want to be. You want promotion. Yeah. So. So there's that aspect to it. Like I'm self doubting. I think I'm not. Everybody's got to be phenomenal. It's got to be perfect. It's got to be incredible. I'm going to use AI because I'm not that. And you are absolutely right, it comes out asshole adjacent.

59:20
Daniel Nestle
Especially if you, I mean, if you don't know what you're looking for and.

59:24
Heather Campbell
You don't trust yourself.

59:26
Daniel Nestle
Exactly.

59:26
Heather Campbell
Because it told me like, I don't know, that's supposed to be the stuff. So I'm gonna.

59:33
Daniel Nestle
It must be right.

59:34
Heather Campbell
Right?

59:35
Daniel Nestle
It has, it has. Everything that's ever been written in by humans and by. And by machines and you know, it must be correct. You know, this is half of my life is about AI accuracy and whatnot. But the, you know, the idea that we can again I'll use the word, delegate our judgment to something that's not ourselves is a recipe for disaster. And if you trust what this kind of, what the machines are saying or what they're doing 100%, you can trust parts of it and kind of go through and say, oh, this is an interesting way to arrange my thoughts. But if they're not your thoughts, and, you know, if you're not sticking to your guns there, you're going to come out with things that are just. That are certainly not even good.

01:00:31
Heather Campbell
Yep.

01:00:32
Daniel Nestle
Definitely not amazing. But, yeah, I think the big. My biggest pet peeve these days with. With AI writing is when it does. When it. When it tries. When it tries to be clever. Right in headlines. That's usually where you get the asshole adjacentness because it thinks cleverness is. Is something like this. One podcast, two people. You're never gonna believe it. Like, one podcast, two people, a million ideas.

01:01:07
Heather Campbell
Yeah.

01:01:08
Daniel Nestle
And A, I would never write something like that. But B, it's like, it sounds like an asshole. Like, you're talking down to me. You're right, you're lazy. You're a lazy writer. You're talking to whatever. There's so many different things and so far from great. But look, I mean, we've been talking for an hour. I can't believe it. Hours already passed. There's. There are. There's so many things I wanted to dig into with you.

01:01:34
Heather Campbell
Like.

01:01:35
Daniel Nestle
Like the idea of synergy and what does that have to do with good is amazing. Like, oh, my gosh, we'll have to. We'll have to put a pin in that one. But what I wanted to really kind of, you know, end up with here is like, you know, when all is said and done, Heather, when you think about your book and, you know, when you think about how it. How comms and how communicators and marketers can get the most out of this, you know, understanding that they don't have to always be perfect. That good is amazing. You know, what would be your, like, summation, Their final words of advice to them? Considering. Considering the kind of world we live in, the future that's coming with more and more AI and machines. Right. So, you know, basically your platform. Say what you want.

01:02:23
Heather Campbell
I go back to something I touched on a little bit before, which is so fascinating, thinking about the audience that we're talking to. You're the main character of your life. You know, within all of these things, you're the main character. What are you writing? How are you recognizing where you are and what story arc, which chapter. This is all for you to decide. And AI is a tool. It's a tool. And we could also say it's a tool, but you don't have to just relinquish your Ability. You're good communicators, people. You guys do this for a living. People pay you money to do this. Turn around, look at yourself in the mirror. Recognize that you get to do these things for yourself and not in the asshole adjacent AI way.

01:03:24
Daniel Nestle
Yeah.

01:03:24
Heather Campbell
Really looking at you. One of the. One of the last chapters, one of the very last chapters in the book is about getting a good night's sleep. What does that have to do with good is amazing. Nothing and everything. Taking care of your foundational needs is critical to do anything. So get a good night's sleep. Another one of the chapters towards the end is called three things that make you happy. Mm. I'm talking about small things. Not I'm going to Paris or I'm gonna be in. My book's gonna be a New York Times bestseller. Can you name three things that make you happy? That make you happy? Small things, cheap things, easy things. Number two, do you do them? Number three, do you celebrate it? Do you share with other people? Do you brag? Do you brag?

01:04:23
Heather Campbell
I brag about the fact one of the three things that makes me happy are cut flowers. Oh, love cut flowers. Number one, they're already dead. I can't kill them. It's not my doing. Number two, when I walk around with a bouquet of flowers, complete strangers smile at me. They can't help themselves. People see flowers, they smile. It's beautiful. Dopamine hit. Dopamine hit. Dopamine hit. I bring them home, I put them in. I pick which of my vases I'm gonna put them in. I look at the colors, I look at the what's gonna bring it out. And then I sit there and they make me smile. In April or March, depending on the season, at Trader Joe's, you can get 10 daffodils for $1.79. It's like they are paying you with sunshine to smile. So it's your story. You get to write it.

01:05:26
Daniel Nestle
You just made me think about what are my three things if I have them. And one of them is, of course, just a pleasurable meal. Just a good home cooked, basic, you know, something that my wife puts together. Cause I can't cook. I mean, I can grill, but I shouldn't say I can't cook. I don't cook is probably more accurate. But boy, I love a good Japanese countryside family style. Just a very basic rice, veggies, some dish done. And that's just. Makes me feel so good. For. No, for. Well, for a variety of reasons. But, you know, it's not like Some big accomplishment for me. I love, I love it when, you know, I just love just the dogs, love hanging out with the dogs. Just spending a little bit of time. And so that's, you know, two. These are little things and then.

01:06:32
Daniel Nestle
But I really love a good conversation. Just a good conversation is so invigorating. And clearly we have done that. We have done that today and not. I know we talked before. So this is the second of many probably conversations that we are certainly going to have. Heather and I want to, you know, just make sure everybody knows. If you want to find Heather. Yeah. Go to heatheracampbell.com because there's a lot of Heather Campbell's.

01:07:01
Heather Campbell
So many of us, so many Heather Campbells.

01:07:03
Daniel Nestle
So heatheracampbell.com and you can check her. Look for Heather again. Heather A. Campbell on LinkedIn and certainly in the show Go out and get Good is amazing. I will link to the book in the show notes for sure. But yeah, Amazon Good is amazing. It's fantastic idea. And everybody knows that I am notorious for not necessarily reading the books of my guests. So mea culpa. I haven't read this book and I wanted to hear more about it from Heather, but, you know, you made me want to read it. And I certainly believe in this whole idea that we are caught up in this nutsy crazy idea that we can be perfect and we can't.

01:07:51
Daniel Nestle
And oh, the last thing I wanted to say is I think everybody should create either like, you know, an AI agent or a custom GPT or a quad project or something that is basically your inner critic. So go create. Go create your own Blanche. And then, you know, whenever you have ideas, go to Blanche, see what Blanche thinks of your ideas and then you can do the opposite of whatever Blanche tells you. Exactly.

01:08:22
Heather Campbell
Love it.

01:08:23
Daniel Nestle
I think that would be a hysterically fun way to use AI and it wouldn't be. And you'd want it to be not just asshole adjacent, but squarely asshole for that. So again, heatheracampbell.com good is amazing available where you buy any books? Did you do an audio as well? Audiobook?

01:08:44
Heather Campbell
I did, actually. The audio just came out. I narrated it. I had so many people saying, I feel like I can hear your voice, but I really want to hear your voice. So I did it.

01:08:53
Daniel Nestle
So great. The audiobook is out there. And Heather, thank you so much for being on the show.

01:08:59
Heather Campbell
It's been a pleasure, really enjoyed it. Thank you so much.

01:09:06
Daniel Nestle
Thanks for taking the time to listen in on today's conversation. If you enjoyed it. Please be sure to subscribe through the podcast player of your choice. Share with your friends and colleagues and leave me a review. Five stars would be preferred. It's your call. Have ideas for future guests? Want to be on the show? Let me know@dantrendingcommunicator.com thanks again for listening to the trending Communicator.