The Research PR Couldn't Afford Until AI - with Rich Gallagher

00:00
Daniel Nestle
Welcome or welcome back to the trending Communicator. I'm your host, Daniel Nestle. You know, I've always believed in research done right. It's the difference between a comms program built on insight and one built on vibes. And the best work I've seen started with a real question and someone willing to chase the answer because we are at heart inquisitive people in the comms profession. But what's always bugged me is the counterfeit version. You know, the survey reverse engineered to confirm whatever you'd already decided to say. Usually in service of a lead generation campaign or something like this. It's very early content marketing Y and you know, you Whip up a LinkedIn poll on the back of a napkin or worse, you have AI do it now, you call it science and you give honest research a bad name that it never earned.

00:55
Daniel Nestle
And for a long time, the real thing, the real research, stayed rare because rigorous research was slow and expensive. So what happens now that the cost of doing it right is collapsing? Now that a comms person or marketer can interrogate the entire record of what got said, where and to whom, instead of working from a hand picked sample? Well, today's guest did exactly that. He ran over a thousand podcast episodes through AI to map which shows are truly built for private companies and their founders and which only claim to be. It's the fourth report in a research discipline he built from nothing at his agency. Nominated for two Sabre Awards, all from a 20 year agency lifer who decided to answer his biggest questions by writing the code himself.

01:42
Daniel Nestle
Now this is the same guy who taught Nintendo how to tweet, who cut the ribbon on a Disney World attraction and tracked down the world's biggest Guinness fans for the brand's 250th birthday. Consumer PR royalty who quietly became one of the sharpest AI and comms minds in the business. Well, we're going to get into what his podcast research found, some other research programs he's done and where it all points what our profession becomes when Curiosity finally has tools fast enough to keep up with it. He's head of communications innovation at Brands2Life, advisor to Princeton startup founders, Detroit native, two time girl dad, and a proud nerd who might just have turned PR research into something that earns the name. Please welcome to the show, my friend Rich Gallagher and also my local buddy. Cause we're both in the Princeton area.

02:33
Daniel Nestle
How are you doing man? It's good to see you.

02:35
Rich Gallagher
I am good. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

02:38
Daniel Nestle
It's funny, like going through all that intro stuff.

02:41
Rich Gallagher
That is quite an intro. Yeah, well, you know, you earned it.

02:44
Daniel Nestle
You've got a couple of scalps under your belt, so to speak. I mean, in the PR world. But I, I can't help but just know, like notice of course that there's so many similarities here. Like, you know, we're approximately in a similar age group. I'm two time over girl, dad, I'm a huge nerd. I am like coding my life away these days. You know, like, if I can't couldn't find the tool or if I can't figure it out, I just code it and build it. And research is one of those things that, you know, like I said, I always valued it and always found it so critically important. But how often have we gotten it right, you know, or how often has it been like kind of put aside because it's too expensive or we take the shortcut, you know.

03:28
Daniel Nestle
And I think you've taken a very different approach, you know. So let's hear about it. What, what, who is Rich Gallagher? You know, where are you coming from? What's going on at Brands to life?

03:40
Rich Gallagher
You pick and choose, you know, and I think you hit it on the head where, you know, I think PR and marketing folks have for the longest time really kind of looked at research as sort of a means to an end. Right. Of, you know, we've got this campaign. I really need to prove, you know, this many people like this thing and oh, it happens to be the thing our client is promoting. Right. I mean, we've all been there. But, you know, I was fortunate enough kind of early ish in my career back when I was at Conan Wolf.

04:16
Rich Gallagher
And this was, let's see, like early 2000s and we had launched the ADP national employment report with, you know, obviously at this point ADP was paying one in six people in the country and you know, they were sitting on this massive trove of data just in looking at, well, how many new paychecks did we cut this month versus last month? And then just even a little bit of, you know, just going one layer deeper in, well, what sectors were those, you know, those new payrolls in? And that became this, you know, incredible kind of econometric bellwether from. And it really cost ADP pretty much nothing.

04:55
Rich Gallagher
You know, it was already data they had and you know, was very easy to, you know, with the help of some economists, turn that into something that, I mean, look, you know, it comes out now, first Wednesday of the month, and you got everyone watching it to kind of predict what the Bureau of Labor Statistics report is going to be like. So that's, that was, I think, really powerful to see firsthand. And then years and years later, I ended up working with Moat. You know, Moat does advertising analytics. People. This is well before, you know, they're still a pretty small company. Before they had sold to Oracle and all of that.

05:33
Rich Gallagher
And they had this gadget that they built and it was basically a chrome extension that would show just drawing on publicly available data, how much each political party had spent on ads on the site you were looking at. And this was in the run up to the 16 election when it was a massive story of when were really just starting to scratch the surface on things like editorial bias and how ad dollars might have wag the dog on that. And you know, that was again, a really great learning for me. And oh, wow, there's all this data already sitting out there. And in this case it was, you know, publicly available, you know, like Freedom of Information act numbers that are sitting there that Moat pulled into this really cool gadget.

06:27
Rich Gallagher
And you know, we worked with a lot of advertising reporters and political reporters to kind of plug them into this. This really, you know, ongoing story that they could use just to file piece after p. Throughout that election run up. And so, you know, it's, it was neat seeing that and then kind of tucking it away because, you know, like you said that level of rigorous research was kind of only available to academics, right? Like, yeah, you know, no one on the, on the client side or the agency side had the time to really do research the right way. Then fast forward to a couple of years ago. We all get these fantastic research assistants. So, you know, our research department is largely cloud based here. And you know, it's.

07:16
Rich Gallagher
And, and so I think, you know, it really starts with that question of like, okay, well, what's something that we, you know, up until a few years ago, we never could do? And that was where, you know, we've now done a series of four reports. And, and they kind of each started with this sort of, you know, almost sounds like a dare, you know, like. Yeah, yeah, because you watch, you know, every single hour of market day television on the three major business broadcast networks for a month. Like, no, of course not. Right? You wouldn't, you know, that's like a Geneva Convention violation to force someone to do that. But now we have tools, you know, you can. You can scrape the closed caption for the hearing impaired and effectively make the, you know, make the AI watch the show.

08:01
Rich Gallagher
And when you start ingesting that amount of, you know, when you're watching a full month of TV or in the case of, you know, almost 2,000 episodes of podcasts, you start to see these really interesting patterns emerge that you would never get just in your perspective. As, you know, I'm a fan that listens to the same handful of podcasts every week. It's like, yeah, you. You start to get a sense for the rhythm of your podcast, but you're not really gonna. Gonna be able to appreciate kind of the full forest of, well, you know, what's happening in podcast.

08:30
Daniel Nestle
Well, it's a matter of volume of all this unstructured data that's kind of structured because it's sitting in specific places. But you're right, years ago, I mean, 2016, you're talking about the run up to the election. Then we thought that, oh, my gosh, look at all this great data you can pull. But then what do you do with it? How do you analyze it? Because there's only so many Excel formulas that communicators know. The answer, by the way, is zero. We don't know any.

08:58
Rich Gallagher
Right?

08:58
Daniel Nestle
Yeah, any Excel formulas. But, you know, there's. There's. Okay, we run it through this, or you try this, or. Oh, what if we do it? You know, a social listening thing, but, like, the tools just. Just weren't there. We had to invent. You know, I was at. I was at Edelman at the time, you know, around that time, a little before then. And the stuff that were trying to do, my. Myself and my boss, Dave Rosen, and David is just. I'm gonna just say this, a genius like analytics and measurement. Do you know David?

09:33
Rich Gallagher
So, yeah, friend of the pod. I worked with David in my very first job in PR. So, yeah, I was 21 years old working with David in a firm that specialized in hedge funds. I think there were four of us working there at the time. So, yeah, we go way back.

09:50
Daniel Nestle
Yeah. So David, he is. He's a mad genius. And were trying to figure out how to do this crazy thing called predictive analytics. Right? Predictive analytics. Taking recent. Historical. Recent, but historical. Because obviously, if it's not right in the now, it's historical, but recent, but historical content is really specialized from specialized places. Analyzing it and then using that, plus layered over user trends on certain websites and social. Just layer it all together, and then you go, I Think that they're gonna start talking about bonds again, this kind of thing. So you come up with these lists, but to do that meant you had to read hundreds of articles or at least scan them, and you had to then physically say, oh, I think that this article is about this. And write down the one blurb, right, the topic.

10:51
Daniel Nestle
And you know, you're just doing this. So it took me, I, like, I did one assignment, like one of the kind of prototypes that we did. Took me like 60 something hours of mantime, of man hours. But I was, But I had other people working on it too. So like all in, it was like 100 hours, 150 hours. Crazy stuff today. 30 Seconds.

11:12
Rich Gallagher
Yeah, like 30.

11:14
Daniel Nestle
I mean, like it takes me 30 seconds, then I wait five seconds, five minutes, and then it's. I get a much better beautiful report done that tells me the same exact thing. And that's just the difference. So we had all this data and just only limited by the time that we had to sit there and crush it and analyze it. Unless you're David Rose, in which case you could read 400 articles in an afternoon because he's, like I said, mad genius. Sorry, David. It's true. But you know, in your case, right, you took, you had this kind of insight that some of us have had in different ways because suddenly the AI is available and you could go, oh, wait, what can I do with this? But you had this insight and you decided to operationalize it.

12:01
Daniel Nestle
You know, you took it and you decided to bring it into your, to your firm and kind of. I don't know, I don't know if you were stepping on any toes with the big guys there. Like, the big guys meaning like the ipsos of the world or whatever and, or any existing relationships. But how did you like, manage to sell it in and, you know, how did you know it was the real thing? How did you kind of figure out that, you know. Yeah, the stuff I'm getting from AI is legit and, you know, where did you. And the last part of that is, how did you ensure it was.

12:34
Rich Gallagher
Yeah, and I think that's. That's a great question. Like, where does it start? You know, I, I will say I think the, you know, agencies have, well, agencies and comms departments kind of all over just have a tremendous opportunity right now. But the ones that are going to do the most with it, you know, out of the gate are the ones where leadership is bought in and can kind of turn on it fast enough. Like we you know, I'm proud of it.

13:04
Rich Gallagher
At Brands to Life, we, you know, very quickly launched the Brands to Life AI hub of which, you know, I'm one of the members of in the US but more importantly, I think very was were very quick to put a policy together and kind of establish the sort of the rules of engagement with AI because you know, we're seeing even in kind of these early years, if you're, you know, if your workplace is not allowing it, then you get a lot of this shadow AI use they're calling it, right Where. Yeah, you know, I think, you know, your desk workers are going to use it like you knowledge workers are going to use AI period. And they should right now. Right? It's, you know, why would you not want to do your job more efficiently?

13:47
Rich Gallagher
But it's, you know, the companies that are too slow to act on it and you know, teach their people how we use this and you know what the regs are, they are really going to risk a lot of knowledge leakage and just, you know, stuff you don't want getting out of the four walls of your company getting out there. So, you know, I think that was the first thing is from day one when I started doing this research, we already had a policy in place that I knew I was going to be, you know, working within the confines of, and knowing that I wasn't doing anything wrong. And then I think, you know, then to your question about like, well, how do we know it was legit? You really just had to start playing, right?

14:30
Rich Gallagher
I mean, I think, you know, at first it was like, well, you know, let's take a look at, you know, a. Can I get a hold of. I think the first one we did was actually just looking at, you know, kind of traditional media, so New York Times, Wall Street Journal and the Washington Post. Because at the time, you know, we work with a lot of privately held, like PE and VC backed technology companies and as you know, we leaders usually think, well, you know, why aren't we in the Wall Street Journal? And so it was really looking at, well, let's quantify how many privately held CEOs are actually in the Wall Street Journal, you know, in a given quarter. And so that became, you know, okay, let's just create something that can scrape these three newspapers.

15:16
Rich Gallagher
Which sounded like a very simple thing at first. But then you realize, as I'm sure you've seen, like, you know, once you get a little bit deep, it's like, oh, well, these three websites have three very different paywall structures and different sitemaps. And so it wasn't. Yeah, it wasn't. You know, I'm going to, right. I'm not going to make one automation that crawls all three of them. I'm going to make three automations and each one is designed to, you know, read very specific content on a site.

15:39
Daniel Nestle
Yeah. And then, and then on top of that, you have to make sure it actually reads it because, you know, AI says or you think that it's read it. Yeah, right. But it reads the first three lines and the last in the middle and kind of says, okay, this is what this is about. But no, you have to tell it to read the whole thing. Yeah.

15:57
Rich Gallagher
And actually what the kind of first test for that was, I was inspired by, you know, the New York Times sends out this email every week that basically says like, you know, how good, how closely did you read the news this week? And so I, every time it would ingest a few hundred articles, I would just sort of ask general questions about that period in time and say, you know, what, who's in the news that you've read and why are they interesting? And it was always able to come back with like, you know, like very, you know, kind of hundred dollar jeopardy level questions. I'm like, okay, you're like, it really is ingesting the stuff and you know, had to come up with some workarounds where, you know, if it's, how is it getting articles?

16:46
Rich Gallagher
How is it, you know, how can it, how can we structure the automation in a way that gives me time to, you know, use actual login credentials? Because of course, through brands to life, we, you know, we have memberships to all the papers we're looking at. And then in turn, when we went to do the broadcast one, then it was like, okay, YouTube TV is a great use case for this, you know, because that is a way to have, you know, bring all of these three networks into a computer, into, you know, and in with closed caption for the hearing impaired that it can scrape and all those things. And then again, like, podcast was interesting because that's, that still feels kind of like the wild west of like.

17:28
Rich Gallagher
Yeah, you know, there are so many different solutions for how podcast captions get generated that there was a lot of trial and error of just trying to, you know, figure out an automation that actually could reliably, you know, get the podcasts that we needed it to listen to.

17:45
Daniel Nestle
Yeah, I, I, I've tried all sorts of scrapers. Not, and I don't mean like the shady ones, I mean.

17:52
Rich Gallagher
Yeah, right.

17:53
Daniel Nestle
All sorts of ways to scrape transcripts, content, you know, like words, as it were, from, from whatever source it was, you know, in a way that doesn't violate anybody's terms of service. That's hard. That's the hard part. And, you know, I, at some point, you know, I settled on either, it depends on the source, but either dropping it into Notebook LM, which, especially if it's a YouTube video or something, it just, it'll grab the entire transcript from YouTube video. But it's not structured. It's just like one continuous, you know, so that was one method. And I was like, I'm not sure if this is going to be great or I just take them and I drop them into Fred Fireflies, you know, just to see how that's going. You know, there's different ones you trust, different ones you don't.

18:50
Daniel Nestle
But there's no, like, one answer until you finally kind of can work out either a script or an automation or a, or build something for yourself that's going to go and get transcripts, you know, it's going to go and get those things, you know, and nowadays, of course, since if you have Claude or, you know, even, I guess even chatgpt in the browser, just open up a page and you're like, grab the text for me. Yeah. You know, which is kind of fun.

19:22
Rich Gallagher
Oh, I think, I mean, I think the most fun part of it right now is there is no one right way to do any of this. Yeah. And just how far it's come. Right. Like, I think when we did the first two reports, that was during the, we had Claude code, but not Cowork didn't come out yet. And I can't even imagine doing the podcast one before Cowork had come out because, you know, like, I am not a coder. So, like, me working with Claude code very much felt like just, you know, trying to put IKEA furniture together where it's like, okay, tell me what to.

19:56
Daniel Nestle
Do in the terminal.

19:57
Rich Gallagher
Yeah, I'm going into terminal. And okay, it gave me this error. What do I do with that? You know, just kind of that back and forth. So, yeah, Cowork really, like, set me free.

20:07
Daniel Nestle
It changed the game. Well, it's interesting. Like, I, you're not going to find a bigger fan of Coworker. Maybe I'LL fight you for that. Like, than me and.

20:15
Rich Gallagher
No, and I know we've had this conversation.

20:17
Daniel Nestle
We've had this conversation. Yeah, I co. Works, my bud. I mean, except for, you know, like today and seems like every other week there's some sort of anthropic problem with the status down, you know, can't go, can't do my work. Supposed to be my friend Claude, but with. With Cowork, you know, it's. I find it to be a. Indispensable now kind of part of multiple workflows that I have. But I still don't use it for the coding. Right. I sometimes use it for specking things out and a little bit of planning, but I never use Claude. I never use Cowork. Yeah, I never use Cowork for code. I always use Claude code for code. But recently I've decided that as sort of proud I felt of myself for starting to be able to navigate the terminal window.

21:13
Daniel Nestle
And for those of you listening, the terminal window, and you don't know what that is. The command prompt in Windows is just like if you ever took a computer class, you know, if you're of our age and you took a computer class in the 1980s or, you know, that's what the terminal is like just a. Like a little cursor blinking and you have to. You have to actually type things out. And you can't. You can't, like, move. You can't, like, no ma. Move to where you want to move to. It's very. It's very old school. But like, people who love it.

21:49
Rich Gallagher
I mean, it's a good way to take your very modern silicone that's sitting on your desk now and make it feel like what you used to launch or even trail when you were.

22:00
Daniel Nestle
Yeah, that's right. That's right. That's exactly right. But then, you know, like, with Claude for desktop, you've got now, you know, Cowork, and you have Claude code in the desktop version as well. And at first it was a little buggy, so I didn't use it, but now I find myself using that desktop version of Claude code all the time. And it's great because then I could go back and chat about things, or I can open up multiple sessions and continue in different places. It's a little bit better for me. But all that said, right, not having that, I figure if you had the capability to do these massive research projects even before Cowork, and you did Cowork just merely. But cowork just changed the game a little by being able to handle so many things all at once.

22:47
Daniel Nestle
And you being able to say, I'm just going to hit go and put you on auto and I'm going to do other work.

22:53
Rich Gallagher
Yeah, right, yeah, absolutely. And yeah, Cowork, like I said, I think. I don't know if we even could have really done the podcast report or the indie journalist report, the one I did about kind of substack and Beehive and sort of that movement. You really needed Cowork because it was that you. It's so good at assigning sub agents kind of automatically because, you know, when were running down, you know, we had 96 podcasts that were looking at and you know, there we wanted to look at the last, at least the last 12 shows of all of them. And so, you know, it really helped to have any time there's a rotating cast of usually as many as 30 sub agents working on this.

23:37
Rich Gallagher
Sometimes that would just be running down, you know, and then, you know, I think the brilliance of sub agents is that they're not losing their place and you don't have to, you know, re prompt them ever is just sort of like, okay, I'm gonna run this, you know, I. This sub agent is going to listen to all of this show, walk it all the way back and then start on another one. So that kind of that orchestration layer, I, I really think we, you know, it would have been really hard to do without. I don't know if we could have like. I think then you're talking about. Now you're back to academia and just needing to invest a lot of time and bring in.

24:09
Daniel Nestle
It would take, it would take a little bit, a lot more time, but you could still get there. Just, you'd have to be a little inventive about how you're pulling the transcripts or something or you know, and yeah. And worry about consistency all the time and whatnot. You know, like so getting. Taking the worry out of. That's great. But tell you what I really appreciate about Cowork and Claude in general these days is the deep research part of this, right? So you're talking about these sub agents and you know, agent sub agents, like for people listening Claude code, like cowork and code, they're basically agents of agents. You know, it's. It's a, it's a fully agentic environment.

24:49
Daniel Nestle
You tell it what to do and then it just kind of autonomously does all these things and asks you to asks you for permission from time to time, if you want to give it permission from time to time. And by the way, I suggest everybody does. You know, you don't want to let this thing go free and forever. Like that's asking for trouble, especially if you're inside a company. But I like the fact that you certainly can tell it what you need it to do. And you need to be able to tell it what you needed to do, right? Not rely on. You have to be able to have that insight or the wisdom and the knowledge up front to be able to instruct it properly to give it the full benefit of what you want it to do.

25:32
Daniel Nestle
And then you set it go. But then you need to manage it. You need to be the supervisor, ducking in every now and then, checking it out. And then at the end, you have to show your discernment, which is the big popular word now. But you have to show your judgment, your discernment to say, yes, this is good, this is not good. And why. So it's a big. It's a big. It's not like it's a light load. I mean, it does. It brings different kind of work to your. To you. But what I was. What I liked about it, what I really like about it is how deep you can go with the research. Now this is what I want to. There's a question here somewhere.

26:06
Daniel Nestle
So when deep research first came out, people might have said, oh, you can do that on deep research. You could do your podcast report on deep research. Just have deep research go out and research all these things. Short answer that is, no, you can't. But. Right, right, but I started, I noticed, like, quick and actually, even now, sometimes when you run reg. When you run deep research on Google, for example, you have to be really prescriptive about in your prompting because the risks of hallucination are nuts. You know, but Claude, Cowork especially, and maybe Gemini has upgraded since then, but Cowork especially runs these validation agents after it does the thing. So, like, it's fact checking itself and you still need to fact check. But how much of the deep re. How much of this did you use deep research for, if at all?

26:58
Daniel Nestle
Did you. You know, like, I don't. You don't need to go into how you actually built it. I want you to kind of share your industry secrets. But, you know, what did you find to be the most useful things?

27:09
Rich Gallagher
That's a really good question. I honestly, I think the only time we really used deep research was in forming thesis So very early stage, kind of saying help, you know, how would you set up this research plan? Deep research is great at that, right? Of, you know, being able to say, okay, I have this amount of time and I want to answer this big question and we will do that by. And that's where you start talking, you know, and that was where we started to frame out like, okay, is, you know, how many podcasts is going to be enough to really, you know, for our category and you know, we're looking at, again, it was called, you know, the tech. The tech podcast opportunity for privately held companies.

27:50
Rich Gallagher
So you don't need to listen to, you know, I, I don't need every podcast in the world. I didn't need to, you know, it doesn't matter what they're talking about on Call Her Daddy. Like, I, I don't need that. So, you know, we kind of, I used deep research to help me sort of figure out just kind of quantify the universe that were going to have to look at and then how were going to go about, you know, ingesting all of that. So that was really where Deep research ended. And then it just became kind of a natural back and forth with Cowork, where then, you know, we, so we're coming out of it saying we're gonna, you know, we really Want to canvas96podcasts. How are we going to ingest those?

28:35
Rich Gallagher
You know, how are we going to, you know, what are we going to go in and spot as far as patterns. So we started looking at things like, you know, how often which ones do they have a guest and if they do have a guest, how often is that guest an investor or a founder or an advisor? You know, and that's where you started to. So I think Deep research was helpful in sort of figuring out what trees are we looking for and in that forest and how are we going to find these patterns. But then it really came down to just this kind of natural back and forth of here's where I need to get to.

29:09
Rich Gallagher
And then thankfully Cowork had shipped, you know, I think about a month before that and was very good at helping, you know, again, like reallocate the sub agents and just I think very good at getting a lot of unstructured data in and kind of helping to make sure it was all washed and putting together a good taxonomy for it so then we could spot those patterns really efficiently. And then, and then it kind of let us down when it came time to do the report. Really helped surface. Okay, well, here's some really interesting things that I hadn't even thought about of, you know, there was. It turns out there's this very kind of small class within that class of 96 shows that were, like, really devoted to privately held tech.

29:53
Rich Gallagher
So it ended up being only about 12% of that universe of 96 shows were the types of shows that we would definitely, you know, pitch most of our clients to. But that was really valuable, right? Like, knowing that 12% put us, you know, way out in front of being able to pitch a podcast.

30:10
Daniel Nestle
It's. It just makes me think about the. The process here. Like, taking AI out of the question for a moment just to think of, you know, hey, I want to figure out a way to serve my clients better and figure out where to pitch them better. Where do they belong? Like, how can I not waste their time on earned media and just. And really figure out, like, really nail it in for them and at the same time, convince them that it's not about the audience size or it's not about the readership, it's not about the flagship banner or marquee that's across the top. It's about what the quality of the content is. Right? About the quality of the audience. Are these your people? And, yeah, I mean, as a communicator and a market, like, I. That's. I think it's brilliant.

31:00
Daniel Nestle
And kudos to you for figuring this out. That said, though, coming up with the question, like, how was it you sitting in a room with your colleagues, with your team, was it just like, you know what? I've noticed, I've noticed something. Were you signed Feldian about it? Like, did you ever notice? Or was it like, I wonder if I could. How did this happen? Like, that you decided and, you know, it's the podcasting, but it's also the other reports you've done, they're really innovative.

31:32
Rich Gallagher
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think honestly the first one started with, you know, were. I remember were in New York and this is when twice a year we do the All US Agency meeting where we fly everyone into one city. And I think, you know, were going back and forth about, you know, I think several times during those meetings that had come up of, you know, one thing, all the clients universally wanted was, you know, they want to be in. In tier one more, right? They. They want more. More at bats at the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, you know, the. The big names, right? And, you know, every PRactitioner will tell you, like, well, there's, you know, There's a lot of value in these less sexy, you know, industry verticals. Trades Podcast.

32:20
Daniel Nestle
Right.

32:20
Rich Gallagher
You know, you're seeing so many, I think, really, and, and independent journalists, right, People that are starting substacks and, you know, beehive newsletters and like, you know, you've got some veterans that have been in the industry a long time and covering that space, you know, and they're an authority on it and are doing their own thing and moving over. And so, you know, a lot of it started as the challenge of, well, how do we, you know, how do we actually quantify, you know, this opportunity? How many, you know, in this case, how many privately held CEOs are actually interviewed by the. The Times and the Journal and the Post in a given quarter? Because, you know, we. We have a whole client base that would love to assume it's every day. And as, you know, PR folks, we're reading it every day.

33:06
Rich Gallagher
And we know that's not the case, but we need to, we need some data here. And so that was really how the first one started was, well, you know, now we finally have, like, the challenge is you can't read everything all the time, but what if you could? And now that you have AI, you can, right? Like, we can, you know, we can analyze all these things at a scale that doesn't exist even inside, you know, a very big agency like an Edelman, where you can not only make sure you're reading every single business section story that runs that quarter, but reading it with the same eyes and entering all the tangibles into a database so that, you know, you end up with this really great audit.

33:47
Rich Gallagher
And so once we did that just led to a lot of other questions of like, okay, well, now what if we do it for, you know, broadcast? Because, of course, the next thing is, you know, everyone wants to be on broadcast. So then you started looking at, you know, what are the patterns in broadcast and what are kind of the unique rhythms of, you know, everyone just sort of kind of waves a hand and says, we should be on cnbc. But that's a whole, you know, there's a whole market day of CNBC shows, and they all have different producers, they all have different, you know, kind of aims. You know, a good guest on, you know, on Closing Bell is not necessarily going to be a good guest for tech check. So.

34:27
Rich Gallagher
And, and you wanted to kind of strip away the errata of, well, you know, if you only see CNBC when it happens to be on and you're not on a call, and you can really give it your full attention. Like, that's not going to leave you a really good sample size. So then it became, well, you know, what. What can we invent to watch CNBC for us at scale and give us, you know, really great intel into the patterns? And while we're at it, what about Fox Business and what about Bloomberg? So, you know, it's these kind of questions of like, well, what if we could do this? And, you know, AI's taking down a lot of those barriers of, well, you probably can now. You just need to think about it in the right way.

35:08
Rich Gallagher
And honestly, I mean, I think a lot of it was, you know, talking as a group about what do we do next after the first one. But then a lot of us sort of, I think I can do that. Let me, let me bounce some things. And, and this is where I compare Claude to. It's less Top Gun. It's actually more Clerks. Like, two guys are kind of sitting at a counter and just, you know, you're just sort of like going back to the box.

35:32
Daniel Nestle
Who are you?

35:32
Rich Gallagher
Yeah, you know, Dante and Randall are just sitting in that video store. They're just kind of talking back and forth about, you know, the ethics of destroying the second Death Star and were there trades people on that, you know, in that battle station? And, and it's that I think the rhythm tends to feel more like that where you're just sort of, hey, here's an idea I have. Is this something. And, you know, and this is where I like Claude versus, you know, ChatGPT, I think, is too much of a. Of a sick to actually get a good answer out of it.

36:05
Rich Gallagher
But, you know, that's where Claude was like, well, you know, you could probably find this by researching that or, you know, if you can, if we can have access to this either, you know, if we can quantify this data or find it, you know, out there in the world, then, yeah, you can start answering that question for yourself. Or at least we can get a little bit further down the rabbit hole and see if it's even the right question.

36:28
Daniel Nestle
Yeah, it's dawning on me, or it's not dawning on me, but the thread that happens in all these conversations and a lot of these conversations that I have and certainly in my work is just like, it takes a really curious person and people to get the ball rolling on this stuff. Like, AI can do all these things and, you know, you're not going to find bigger fans of AI than Me and half, most of my guests. But we have to recognize that there's some things that we should be doubling, tripling, quadrupling down on as professionals, but more. I'd say more experienced professionals or creative and curious people combined with that. All right, we have these great ideas. We have these clients, we have these customers. I have whatever the target is.

37:31
Daniel Nestle
I can think of a hundred different dots to connect to get to them, and I got to figure out, okay, which ones are actually viable ones, but really, like, what they are. They're questions. They're like, okay, what does this client want? What does this audience need? What do they want? Like, what do they want from us? How can we achieve this? And, like, you have to just go through this litany of questions that sort of start to come naturally, I think, before you even sit down with the. With your buddy Claude. And then when that's the case, then, like, Claude really becomes, like, extremely powerful. Right? Because you know what you're doing from one. From day one.

38:13
Daniel Nestle
Like, I spoke with a couple friends of mine recently on a show, Brian Piper and Matt Wilkinson, and were talking about the Human in the Loop sandwich. There's all these different ways to talk about human in the Loop, but Brian put it. Put it together as, like, he just calls it the sandwich, right? You. You have to have, like, this very solid, you know, top and bottom, which, you know, for the vast majority of us means bread. But it's, you know, it's just gonna, like, be solid, and then that magical meat in between is what gives you the. The flavor and the actual what the sandwich is. You don't call a sandwich a bread sandwich. You call it a, you know, a chicken salad sandwich. But if we're the top and the bottom, right?

39:02
Daniel Nestle
Like, we means we started, we set the foundation, then we come in at the end, right? You still have to have enough real direction and trust and knowledge to allow the AI to do what it does before you even come back at the end. So it takes a lot of understanding in the first place, a lot of curiosity and everything.

39:27
Rich Gallagher
So.

39:28
Daniel Nestle
So where you've gone with this. So you have this. That. You did the podcast. You just, you know, the. The question you asked was, you know, what tech. What do tech founders need? Like, what are. How could we get tech founders on more podcasts? Right?

39:44
Rich Gallagher
Yeah, like what. You know, what is the opportunity for tech founders in podcast? Because, you know, and. And I think we all see, like, you know, there are a zillion podcasts out there. They're not all gonna be valuable they're not all gonna find the right audience, but the ones that do, you have this great connection with their audience. I think that's more like a good friend. And they have this really long tail. Right? That content's out there forever. And especially now with geo, I think it's even getting more discoverable. You can really quickly tell the difference between the serious podcaster that is packaging the content with neat little chapter breaks and good titles. And they aren't overly cute about their episode titles. They're not too reliant on inside jokes, because that content's going to be findable in five, 10 years.

40:38
Rich Gallagher
So, yeah, I mean, that really started with that question. But I think it's a good point you make about curiosity, because I don't know about you, but I think in almost 25 years of doing this, I feel like the one thing again and again I. I've come back to is, you know, the most important thing for a successful PR person is curiosity. You know, like, really being genuinely interested in uncovering what's special about what your clients do and their business and their industry. And I think, you know, time and again, the. The people that I've worked with that enjoy this the most are the best at it, are the most curious. And it's kind of funny because there's never really been a good metric for curiosity, and now we have it, right? I mean, I think.

41:26
Rich Gallagher
And you know, from now on, I think whenever I interview someone, I'm gonna say, well, how many GitHub commits or how many Netlify pushes have you done in the last couple of weeks? Because that's like. But really, you know what I mean? There's no barrier now, if you're curious about. So wouldn't it be cool if you can make that.

41:45
Daniel Nestle
Tell me how many handover documents are currently living on your hard drive, Right? Tell me how many concurrent sessions of code or cowork or how many are going on at any one given time on your PC, on your computer? These are great. You're right. They're great quantifiable questions. There's a difference between realistic curiosity and lunacy. And I feel like I tend more towards the lunacy side sometimes, but it's really all in the pursuit of something that I just don't want to let go. And back in the day, they might have said, just stop at the questions, man, you're annoying me. But now it's like, keep the questions going, because that's the only way that you're going to get to where you need to go, which is beyond what anybody else can do or beyond what your competitors are doing.

42:42
Daniel Nestle
Or maybe you're treading in a similar territory or you're swimming in the same waters, but nobody's going to ask the same questions that you do. Ultimately, where it goes, you might start with a question with the same question, but you're not going to end in the same question. So there's a kind of interesting built in variance, I think, or built in kind of way to decommoditize the process. How did you like. It was. It's not just a podcast one with you guys though, right? I mean, you mentioned the independent journalist. Can you tell us a little bit about that one? That's, that's fascinating too.

43:19
Rich Gallagher
Yeah. And that was another one where, you know, you can see this trend emerging of, oh, you know, it was like Casey Newton, you know, quit to go do his own thing and Kara Swisher is starting her own. Like you're like kind of all around the same time there was just this. We were just seeing more and more of these big name journalists that were leaving behind a big masthead and bringing a really dedicated audience with them, you know, to go start a substack or, you know, go start something on Beehive or. And you know, sometimes they were coupling it with a podcast. They were, you know, experimenting with a lot of different subscription models.

43:59
Rich Gallagher
And it just, it was really interesting because, you know, and we, so we sat down and kind of say, okay, well, obviously there are a lot of these out there now. And I think, you know, because it's something new in media. Obviously we're curious about it, but also like, you know, I think rightfully so, a lot of clients are going to be skeptical if you say, hey, I think you should do this interview with this journalist. No, you've never heard of this publication before. In fact, it's a substack newsletter, you know, and he's only got 200 paid subscribers. But this is gonna be worth your time. You know, like, that's, you need, you kind of, you need more hard evidence to quantify why it's going to be worth an executive's time to talk to these people. But you know what?

44:44
Rich Gallagher
We, so that really started us down the path of, okay, well, let's make sure we're reading as many of these things as we can and then let's do it at scale. So, you know, and that was, let's take a Look at a defined universe of kind of up and coming, these kind of indie platforms. So we looked across Beehive, Ghost and Substack and really looking at, well, who's covering just from the B2B tech lens. Let's break off that little piece of the universe and see. And so we started with 32 journalists and kind of the one thing they all had in common was they had all left traditional outlets and were writing, you know, for themselves.

45:27
Rich Gallagher
And in flat, I know our mutual friend Pete Patchel was doing this media co pilot and so, and conveniently right before went to press kind of with the report, Barry Weiss had, you know, had left, right, left New York Times, started her own thing and then left that for cbs. So it was like very clearly kind of proving our thesis of, you know, these things are not, it's not the minor leagues. Like this is basically a new kind of empowered voice in journalism that is kind of using today's tools to build their audience and prove that their audience was portable and was more interested in them than, you know, the Masshead they wrote for. And I think it was great. Actually one of our co founders surfaced this awesome Brian Eno quote.

46:20
Rich Gallagher
I said the first Velvet Underground album only sold 10,000 copies, but those 10,000 people all formed a band. And that's kind of like what we're seeing. It's the audiences for these like Substacks and Beehive and Ghost. The readership is very influential themselves. And so you have a lot of writers reading other writers work. And so it's has this kind of, you know, we're sort of at this inflection point where a lot of them are, you know, kind of just starting on this or they're experimenting with making it their full time thing.

46:56
Rich Gallagher
And so there's a really unique opportunity I think for brands and marketers that are taking this seriously and want to work with these people in a, you know, in a way that, you know, you can, you know, we can help them spread the word and help them grow this audience and you know, and they can do things like, you know, they can, you can pay for their flight to come to, you know, your clients, you know, Developer Summit or, you know, there's just some things that they couldn't do in traditional journalism that I think right in that have honestly sort of, you know, the have kind of outgrown their purpose.

47:36
Rich Gallagher
And I think you can do it in a way that isn't, you know, that is entirely you know, above board and has integrity, but you can work with them to really support kind of where they're going and how they're evolving.

47:48
Daniel Nestle
Yep.

47:49
Rich Gallagher
You know, and, and you know, I think also it's interesting to see, like, while were doing the report, Substack launched Substack Defender, which, you know, is sort of a, you know, and a way to support investigative journalism and, you know, so that way folks that maybe couldn't fully report a story at the Washington Post can go independent and pick up that same reporting thread and understand that, hey, by the way, there is a program here to look out for me if I do in fact, you know, get sued for libel. So, so it's, you know, it's a really interesting kind of new channel for emerging voices. And I think, you know, it behooves people like me and folks on the agency side and in house marketing teams to think about, you know, you got to think of these things fourth dimensionally.

48:40
Rich Gallagher
So, like in a, you know, who's going to be a really important journalist to know two years from now and what can you do now as a brand to, you know, make sure that they know about you and have access to you as they're, you know, climbing up that kind of legitimacy tower.

49:00
Daniel Nestle
It's, it's all in line with the change in media relations, isn't it? Like, I've been on the record of saying media relations is dead at times or is dying and we need to let it go. And that kicked over a few hornets nests. I, I, I, I qualify that all the time by saying no, but we need media relations. It's just like in its current form, what most people think of as media relations is not really going to help much. You're being told to, just like you said earlier, you're being tasked to pick up a tier one coverage. Could be a line, it could be anything that's going to, if you're lucky, you'll get something. But for the most part, even if you are lucky, that something is going to disappear.

49:53
Daniel Nestle
You know, like, and forgive me for saying this, when my friend, like one of my friends says this, said this to me this morning, I can't get out of my head like a fart in the wind. Right. It's just gone. And you know, who wants that for their media relations program? Yeah, you could say, oh, look, we got you in the New York Times. Yeah, but it was one line somewhere and nobody's going to Ever read it or write or. It's like paragraph 19, the substack and podcast and you know, independent journalists and independent writers and people like you and people like me, I have a substack and you know, I've been a little lax with it lately. I will get, I will give you that. But, but it's been very well received. Like crazy well received.

50:35
Daniel Nestle
That like, not, I'm not talking about massive numbers. I, you know, if people come, they come. But I get incredible comments. And not just flattery, not flattery, I mean like constructive industry thinking about the industry thinking about where we're going. Insightful responses. Because the readers of Substack do tend to be like authors and readers and writers themselves are all thinking about this stuff and then it gives me more content that I can just repurpose across LinkedIn or whatever. But I'm no journalist, you know, I write every now and then. I'm not a journalist. I have my podcast here and this is the source of so much incredible content. And you know, I get pitched all the time and I'm glad I get pitched all the time. 99% Of the pitches are off. They're not right, because they're mostly, you know, automations or AI driven.

51:36
Daniel Nestle
But every once in a while I bring on a guest who I got from a pitch and I never have regretted it and I'm getting pitched. I mean, it's crazy. Like I'm in this podcast world, who am I? But you think about it and that is what media relations is now. It's getting into the micro channels where your listeners and where your readers and where the people who make decisions are. And you have to figure out that's where somebody's gotta go. Oh yeah, that means I shouldn't waste so much money on pitching the Times. I should maybe take a fraction of that and spend my time calling up a couple of podcasters who are like right in the zone or, you know, and not only will you get incredible coverage because, you know, you're talking for a half hour, an hour.

52:24
Daniel Nestle
That's a lot of words, you know, you get the assets. It's a no brainer to me as a communicator and a marketer and I'm thinking like, why aren't more people getting on the boat? You know, so where do you see the future of media relations in this, in this sense? Like, where is it going?

52:46
Rich Gallagher
Yeah, I mean, I think I don't necessarily subscribe to Media relations is dead, but I think does it's very like it. It kind of goes into a chrysalis and emerges as a beautiful butterfly every couple of years. And. Right. We keep going through these cycles weren't, you know, and I think if you look at what media relations is now versus what it looked like when I started my career, like, those don't even, like that's not even the same behavior. Right. I mean, you know, like in 2003, it was like, okay, well, let me go over to the big shelf with all the Bacon's books and just crack those open and, you know, start putting a list together of all the importers I want to, you know, call.

53:27
Rich Gallagher
And if it's a meteor alert going out, I'll make sure to send them all a fax that day with the satellite coordinates. Right. Like none of these happen anymore. So it's changed and that's good. Like it. And it will continue to change because, you know, the way we consume media and the way media monetizes keeps changing as well. So, I mean, what stayed the same is, you know, it's still a lot of relationships. I think, you know, good PR people still have, you know, great relationships with producers and reporters and people that, you know, are working at, yes. These, you know, big publications that everyone loves, but also that you're taking the time to, you know, rather than just pitching someone's substack, like, well, read, you know, read a few months of their work. Like actually read it.

54:17
Rich Gallagher
Not just, yeah, make your AI analyze it, you know, and actually, you know, because. Right. Why pitch it if you haven't read their work and you don't know that it's going to be a perfect fit? But, but yeah, you're right. I think it has changed a lot in that, you know, even if you do get, you know, let's say you get the, you know, that New York Times or that Wall Street Journal or that Fox Business hit that everyone's after. That's great. But it's gotta be part of a larger, you know, that, that should be the beginning of a larger thing of. Okay, now that, you know, now that our CEO has spoken about this thing on Fox Business.

54:54
Rich Gallagher
Well, first of all, what's he doing in, you know, when FOX Business posts it on YouTube or, you know, the producer posts it on their Twitter, sorry, X. You know, are they in the comments continuing that conversation? And then are they also gonna unpack that on a podcast the next week? Are they, you know, are they writing about it in their own words to put on the blog or on the company's LinkedIn page. You know, there's just a lot more places to sweat the content now and that's great. It makes media relations matter so much more.

55:27
Rich Gallagher
And then I think, you know, let's not ignore like GEO has been, I think, a huge shot in the arm for earned media relations, you know, trusted brands and you know, I think we're, I think it's going to do a lot to lift up those kind of really specific industry verticals and you know, those kind of niche publications that really go a, a mile deep on their content. Like that's GEO solid gold. Because, you know, AI Search is going to find that again and it's going to find it today and it's going to find it five years from now.

56:01
Rich Gallagher
So yeah, I mean, I think, you know, and what a good time to be, you know, a younger person starting your career in PR with all these tools for earned media discovery and like, just making the media relations process so much sharper and more effective, you know, like, yeah, I wonder how much time I spent, you know, poring over a media list in Excel and calling all the reporters just to find out we had the wrong phone number. Like, you know, it's evolved but,.

56:31
Daniel Nestle
But you know, there was a lot of. There's a good rationale for going through the crap that people had to go through to get to where you are now because, you know, you gain wisdom even if you're spinning wheels a lot of the time, you know, because you start to figure out what's good and what's bad or what works and what doesn't work. And you do that through almost kinetically, you know, like it's just, it's gets to be a muscle memory. And nowadays, you know, like the people who are entering the profession or even people who've been in and they're out, they're outsourcing their thinking or they're doing the old cognitive offload thing to throw a little term out there. There's a lot of muscle memory that's being lost, but I don't know if that's a bad thing. Right. I don't.

57:20
Daniel Nestle
Only time will tell because where's this going to end up? We don't know. I agree with you though, certainly about the GEO part of this. Right now you have the different platforms, the Frontier LLMs have whatever deals they have with different publishers and they're working with different search parameters. And like, you know, like I just learned recently that like ChatGPT search is essentially an 80 to 90% overlap with, with Google, right?

58:01
Rich Gallagher
Mm.

58:03
Daniel Nestle
So, but Claude is using Brave browser, right? So Claude and Claude search is very different, like almost zero overlap, at least in the top 10 returns or whatever than ChatGPT. Right. So where do the engines, where are they searching is a big thing. Then what relationship do they have with publishers? You know, is the Wall Street Journal open to them or not? All these questions, like, will change the calculus. But going deep content, rich content, like useful exposes and articles and thought pieces on your sub stacks on blogs, but in the trades, all these places that aren't so beholden to a corporate master necessarily or to page views. That's where the future is, right? And that's where, and you know, podcasts and stuff, and that's where AI is looking more and more.

59:17
Daniel Nestle
But there's sort of one critical factor that all those channels, all those publishers need podcasters included, and that one little critical factor is authority. Right? So, you know, and, you know, a little self interest here because that's what Lilypath, my company, is about. It's like, you know, we're trying to figure out the whole authority thing. You know, we're making sure people stay visible and that what AI says about them is accurate. Right? But that's just the beginning of an attempt or of a way to quantify what authority really is for an individual. We're not looking at websites, right? So website authority has been, you know, Google's been doing that for ages. And you know, or if you're a brand, then your homepage, your, your URLs, it's got authority.

01:00:13
Daniel Nestle
But what if you're, you know, what if you're Rich Gallagher, you know, you're authoritative, you have we talked about, everything we've talked about so far on the podcast today proves that you are an authoritative individual. But AI doesn't know Rich Gallagher, Princeton from Rich Gallagher someplace else. So now hopefully the transcript of this podcast goes into the, you know, wherever it goes, it's going to be, it's certainly going to be searchable and AI will pick up on it and they're going to, It'll be another notch in your authority, right? So when we look at the substacks, when we look at the podcast, when they're all tied to a person, they're all tied to like an individual's authority now.

01:00:53
Daniel Nestle
And that's a whole different world for, I think for media relations, especially like, you know, is there going to be a number that you're going to say, well, their Authority is like 60 out of a hundred. I don't know if it's worth the pitch. I don't know. It could happen, you know, could happen. Geez. Look, we've been over, we've been, we're hitting the hour. Rich, last thing. I'll just, you know, just say that I could continue forever and I know that my listeners know this on these AI topics, but any last words for our listeners? Rich, Anything you want to say to folks before we wrap? I mean, maybe you could think about what's keeping you up at night or what do you look forward to something like that?

01:01:46
Rich Gallagher
Yeah, I mean, I think now what I don't know about you, but I find I feel guilty going to bed without giving Claude something to work on. Right. Like so I know like we've been doing, we've got a really cool app now where we're tracking, it's expected cliche tracker dot com. Oh, and we're looking at you getting the plug in there, the managers and the in the big soccer tournament. Not we're not a FIFA partner, but you know, looking at how often are they using cliches in their pre and post game press conferences and that's become something where, you know, with the time most of these games happen and then when the post match press conferences happen, we've got that, you know, the, we've automated pulling in the press conference transcript and then scoring that for severity based on how trite the cliches are.

01:02:48
Rich Gallagher
And that's, you know, I think that opens up just these endless other ideas of like, wow, what else could we be? You know, what other kind of patter is out there that you know, like, where are people wasting words on just sort of, you know.

01:03:01
Daniel Nestle
Yeah.

01:03:02
Rich Gallagher
Saying a cliche or a trite thing. And that's, I think that, you know, is going to open up a whole like, you know, it's got me thinking a lot about, you know, what are, how are these big, you know, this is like hot IPO summer. How are they communicating it? What is that? What does that sound like? What channels are they kind of, you know, where are they getting the word out? What podcast are they going on to talk about it? Like, and how is all of this entering the calculus into the valuation? I think could be a really interesting thing to look at. Wow.

01:03:33
Daniel Nestle
I just thought of like crisis response and you know, think about what is a post game press conference for the loser if not a crisis response situation. Right, that's what it is.

01:03:45
Rich Gallagher
Yes, yes, very good point.

01:03:48
Daniel Nestle
So like you got these, you got the losing team, you got their spokesperson, their coach going up there. They're often highly media trained. Right. They all, in fact they all are. And how many of them are just sticking to cliche talking points when they've lost versus how many are not? How many are sticking to cliches when they win? That's something I'd love to see out of your. That's what you're doing. But that's.

01:04:12
Rich Gallagher
It's in there. Yeah, I will definitely send that your way because it's interesting. We're finding just looking at, in the confines of a single match, we're looking at the Delta between the pre match and post match conference. The losers are almost always throwing out way more cliches and the winners come to the podium so much more kind of clear eyed. And there was one exception in the early games and it was Tunisia and they lost a lot. They lost by I think four goals and the coach came up and no, like very few cliches, just very much by the book of this is why we lost and it was terrible and this is who we should, you know, and blame me. And he got sa. He lost his job after that press conference.

01:04:58
Rich Gallagher
So using cliches when you've lost a game is kind of a job protection device, it turns out.

01:05:04
Daniel Nestle
Well, look at any corporate apology for the last, however long there have been corporations, you mean.

01:05:10
Rich Gallagher
I'm sorry you feel that way.

01:05:13
Daniel Nestle
It's crazy, you know, but this is a great study. See this is the kind of stuff that happens when you have like somebody like hey, wouldn't it. I wonder what happens if we measure this. And you know, I'm looking forward to seeing a lot more of that from you Rich, and from your people and from your team at Brands to Life. So everybody out there. You can find Rich, of course on LinkedIn, Rich Gallagher. There's a lot of Rich Gallagher's clearly. But look for the guy in Princeton. He's the right one. And something about look for an innovation AI guy in Princeton and that's Rich Gallagher. You can find him on of course at his company brands2life.com. He's the head of Innovation. What's the exact title? Head of Comms Innovation.

01:05:53
Rich Gallagher
Head of Comms Innovation.

01:05:54
Daniel Nestle
Right. Head of comms innovation at brands2life. That's brands with a number2life.com and then princetonnarrativelab.com, all spelled out. Princeton Narrative Lab is Rich's independent website and you can just find him all of those places. I prefer to find him at a networking event locally, have a couple beers. But Rich, it's been a real pleasure. I know that we're going to need to continue the conversation, but thank you very much. Come back again.

01:06:27
Rich Gallagher
Absolutely. Thanks so much for having me. And yeah, I hope to see you out there in the wild soon. We can, we can keep talking.

01:06:32
Daniel Nestle
Guaranteed. See ya.

01:06:34
Rich Gallagher
Thanks a lot, Daniel.

01:06:38
Daniel Nestle
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