Authority Intelligence Is Built for People, GEO is for Brands - with Erin Lanuti

00:00
Daniel Nestle
Welcome or welcome back to the trending Communicator. I'm your host, Dan Nestle. Believe it or not, I have guiding principles for this show. I invite people I admire, respect and want to hang out with. But I never got around to writing down a rule about inviting people I work with. Which is lucky, because today I'm interviewing my own business partner, who, by the way, I admire, respect and want to hang out with. So, full disclosure, my entire life and livelihood might just be wrapped up in nearly everything my guest is about to say today. Factor that in, because I do every day. But you know, I'm doing it anyway, bringing on a coworker, because the question underneath the company is bigger than the company itself and it's a challenge facing all of us in comms and marketing. It's trending Communicator worthy for sure.

01:01
Daniel Nestle
You know, for the last few years, almost everything I've worked on has circled the same problem. How do capable people get seen accurately? How do they get positioned, found, considered, or taken seriously? I mean, I've built frameworks around it. I've spent a good chunk of this show's run on it. And every one of the conversations I've had has rested on an assumption that I never really bothered to examine, which is that the audience on the other end was a person. Well, that assumption is clearly gone. Something reads you before a human ever does. It sorts you, categorizes your seniority, it decides what kind of professional you are and it hands a summary to whoever asked or whatever asked. Go ask a model about something in your industry and watch what comes back. It has a view.

01:47
Daniel Nestle
It built that view out of whatever it could find and nobody checked that with you first. Which makes visibility a much stranger problem than it used to be. What does the machine already think you are? Where did it get that? And what happens to your reputation when the answer is wrong? Well, I came at that from the craft side positioning narrative. How expertise turns into influence, what makes a person legible to other people. And my guest came at it from a more analytical and measurement based perspective. A different discipline, different tools, but the same problem. For two decades, my guest built the machinery that tells AI systems how to read brands. Running AI strategy across a $3 billion portfolio, 25 agencies, 8,000 people. She invented a patent pending platform that turned earned and conversational data into something executives could actually decide from.

02:40
Daniel Nestle
She built a global generative engine optimization offering geo, before most of our industry had a name for it. 100 People across AI, engineering, data science, analytics and product. What she kept running into was an asymmetry. Brands have infrastructure to govern how they get interpreted. People have nothing close before that. By the way, she scaled performance marketing across 42 countries and accolades, you may ask. Innovator 25 digital 40 over 40 keynotes at Cannes Lions 4A's PR Week. Provoke. There's a lot more. She's the former chief innovator officer at Omnicom Public Relations Group and the person who puts up with my FaceTimes, texts, emails and calls all day long. As in fairness, I do hers. Conflict of interest fully declared. Please welcome to the show the co founder and CEO of Lillipath, my partner and my friend, Erin Line. Erin, how you doing? Hello.

03:40
Erin Lanuti
I'm so excited to be on this show.

03:44
Daniel Nestle
You know, it's interesting because I have, you know, I regularly bring on leaders of our industry, people in our field that have done great things or people I can geek out with, or whatever. You know, I do have principles, like I said at the beginning of the show. And I'm really surprised that, you know, our paths haven't. Hadn't really crossed. You know, I mean, we've been running in parallel, similar circles, of course. I mean, I didn't exactly swim in the same waters with Omnicom PR Group, but. But I've been involved, I've been around there and I never. We never really met. And then we get introduced and three months later we're business partners, you know, and. And within short order, very intertwined. And it's as though I've known you my whole life, you know, I'm not just saying that because you're my business partner.

04:31
Daniel Nestle
You know, people who listen to the show know that I'm fairly, you know, honest, open, what you see is what you get type of guy. But. But it astounds me the way that the universe works, I guess, where you kind of meet these people and all of a sudden it's like, why haven't we met before? It's the strangest thing.

04:51
Erin Lanuti
It is crazy because I met you through our other business partner, Todd Grossman. Todd, our introduced.

04:57
Daniel Nestle
Co founder number three or co founder number two. We're not in any order, but yeah, he's our other co founder, Todd. Yeah.

05:06
Erin Lanuti
And he introduced us and it is wild that we had never worked before, never met each other, the whole thing. And yet, as you said, three months later, here we are, business partners.

05:17
Daniel Nestle
That's right. You know, and PR and comms and marketing is pretty, you know, when it comes down to it, fairly small world, incestuous, you know, I met somebody yesterday who I connected with years ago. Turns out, you know, you have those. LinkedIn, you have those conversations where you're like, yeah, let's connect on LinkedIn. And you just, you go over there, you're like, shoot, we're already connected. When did that happen? You know, so you gotta go look and go, oh, yeah. If you click on the contact button, you can see when you connected. It's like, oh, when was that? What did we do? What was I doing? And then I'm like, doing this side research. What was I doing that day? You know, so I don't embarrass myself again. But, you know, were clean Slaters for.

05:58
Daniel Nestle
It was a strange thing, you know, and turns out that we're working on a lot of the same stuff. So when you. Yeah, so when you came on Lilypath, you know, we. We just started running.

06:08
Erin Lanuti
So.

06:09
Daniel Nestle
Yeah, look, a lot of the folks here certainly aren't going to know who you are. So let's start with the. Let's start with the Aaron Linuti story. Just, you know, how did you get to where you are? You know, the top line. The top line version. I mean, you know, you started off, you launched. You launched Colgate at Burson. You know, you had, you know, you ran. You ran Bell South's Olympic sponsorship in Atlanta. I mean, going from there and then having this storied career through entertainment, ultimately to Omnicom, you know, and then like a, A, essentially a, A geek. You became a geek, like, totally like me, right?

06:49
Erin Lanuti
I think I've always been a geek. I think I just hit it really well.

06:53
Daniel Nestle
Well, that is. I'm glad, I'm glad I've met you since you've openly embraced your geekdom. But how did you. How did that, you know, what's that arc? How'd that happen?

07:03
Erin Lanuti
So I think starting off at Burson with Colgate Total was really interesting because I was right out of college, right? And as a college kid, you do whatever they tell you to do, right? And I got put one of the largest consumer launches that existed. Ton of fun. And from there, I was lucky enough to be chosen to work on the Bell south sponsorship for the Olympics, which was every young person's dream, right, to be sent to Atlanta for a month, work on the Olympics, like, yes, please, sign me up, right? And that was just an incredible experience, running basically an event every single day, all the interviews and handling Izzy, the first Avatar spokesperson, an Olympics. I mean, it was like, way ahead of its time. So from there, I Left Burson and moved to MSL or Manning, Selvage and Lee.

08:06
Erin Lanuti
At the time, I didn't know that.

08:07
Daniel Nestle
Was what stood for.

08:09
Erin Lanuti
That's what it stood for. Learn something where I worked on Procter and Gamble's New to the World initiative. So launch Febreze, swiffer, ThermaCare relaunched Mr. Clean. And those campaigns were really interesting because they had huge budgets because they were new to the world products. But at a certain point, they just weren't connecting in the way that they should have. The old playbook wasn't working. And I convinced my agency and proctor that we should try entertainment marketing, which at the time wasn't really a thing.

08:48
Daniel Nestle
Right?

08:49
Erin Lanuti
Yeah. So we did a partnership with Jessica Simpson and the newlyweds, right. Where she could use Swiffer to clean around the house and got her on the COVID of Rolling Stone. Can you imagine with a Swiffer where we basically blew the doors off sales at Walmart and from there did a lot of entertainment work. So that's how I got into entertainment, was trying to find a new way to connect with consumers.

09:18
Daniel Nestle
So just a quick PSA for our listeners. We don't advocate such imagery anymore. But, you know, in the day, having Jessica Simpson push around a Swiffer was a. Was a huge win. And the idea of bringing, you know, of using entertainers to advertise something was always, you know, was always there. Product placements in film on. And tv. But. And also having, you know, celebrities do commercials. But this is a completely different animal. Right. I mean, you know, now you're kind of starting to tread into the ground of. Of what became known as influencer marketing. And Influencer. Influencer comp. I don't know what they call influencer comms. They should. They should call it just, you know, influencer. Just influencer. I don't know. They should call it something else because I. I have these.

10:06
Daniel Nestle
This trouble with Mark separating marketing comms all the time, but for lack of a better word, sort of became influencer marketing. Was anybody calling it at the time? Were you starting to call it at that time?

10:16
Erin Lanuti
So I was part of the early Trend and Influencer. 100%. Getting people with influence to talk about products and services that they actually understood and cared about in a relevant way and context was huge. Right. So we built a whole platform for Swiffer called Swiffer and Unexpected Places. Right. Where we, you know, continued to do things. Like we created the first ever mix cd. Right. Playlist for songs to clean by.

10:52
Daniel Nestle
Right.

10:53
Erin Lanuti
I mean, like, this was big and, you know, continued to move. And that's where I went from there, was to create my own company in entertainment, which essentially matched brands and entertainment properties. So that was the early part of my career. It was always about how do I connect people in meaningful ways.

11:20
Daniel Nestle
Yeah. And then seeing how. How you're using influencers and. Or kind of create. Almost creating a category, so to speak, because we'll get that. We'll probably hear that again in a little while. You moved from there and then went back to. Was it a straight road back to sort of the traditional PR agency? And you certainly took a technology turn at the same time. So, like, that is an interesting change. And you were also entrepreneurial. You had your own company. Right. So how did that transition happen and what got you into the tech side?

11:59
Erin Lanuti
So I was brought back to the agency to run the largest account they had at the time, which was UL Underwriters Laboratory Laboratories. So if you take a. A phone or an electronic device and flip it over many times, it has the UL seal, so you know that it is safe little PSA there. So ranul doing all the integrated marketing from there. And at the time, again, it was, how do we connect with audiences in a meaningful way? So this was a standard that most people didn't know. How do we make it relevant and fun? And so at the time, what we did, which was very unconventional for a very old brand, was we sponsored the White House Christmas tree lighting. Right. And then we hired the muppets to do PSAs. So remember beaker and all of these Muppets?

13:00
Erin Lanuti
So we filmed PSAs where Beaker, who always got blown up or electrocuted or whatever, would do things you shouldn't do to educate people in a fun way about the dangers of, you know, product malfunctions. So that was kind of a fun way back into the agency world. But then there, too, it got to a point where the things that were doing, the regular PR and so forth, it just wasn't cutting through. And clients were demanding ways that we measured our work in new ways, which is when I started digging into technology and created this tech called Conversation to Commerce, which essentially allowed you to measure earned media without having a pixel. So it was a huge revolution because we could finally measure PR in. In the same way that you could measure paid. And it became a huge product at Publicis.

14:00
Daniel Nestle
I kind of want to step back just a second there, because back to Beaker. Oh, I'd love to give back to Beaker, by the way. I Do it like a little beaker voice. When my kids are bothering me, you know, when the kids are getting annoying, I'm like, boy, is that a trigger. Don't do that to your children. If you're listening, it's bad parenting. So, so. But, you know, big fan of the Muppets, of course, having grown up at that time. What I was thinking about though is like, you're talking about these big budget agencies with. You're able to get the Muppets, you know, you're able to get Jessica Simpson. You know, these are huge. Seems like they come with huge price tags. And I think a lot of the more. Let's call them purist communicators out there.

14:52
Daniel Nestle
Or some people might say, well, that's marketing. You're doing marketing. Or, or that's not the same thing. That's not. So how would you have did. Or how do you, how would you differentiate between what you were doing and like comms and PR and marketing? Where does it all fit? And you mentioned that the magic word integrated, which I love, but in your mind and according to your clients and bosses, were you know, were you in the PR side? Were you in the marketing side? What, what differences make, et cetera?

15:22
Erin Lanuti
Yeah, so I've always been a huge proponent of integrated marketing. Right. In everything I've done. So comms, influencer, paid, you know, making sure all of those things work together, which is even more important today. Right. Than it was back then. So I think, you know, whether it be earned is just simply, you know, a different vehicle to our products, services, brand voices. Right. In, in different channels and in different ways.

15:57
Daniel Nestle
Yeah, it, if you go through the archives of the trending communicator, you're going to find this conversation in many different forms. I just, I, I've always felt that, you know, PR always got the short shrift. And I've had so many people on saying, oh, well, PR doesn't have a budget. And, well, we always giving up our budget to marketing. But that, but then we talk, we hear from people like you who are like, yeah, we had this huge budget, we did this and that. And then those people are like, yeah, but, yeah, but that's really marketing. Or yeah, but, you know, but I don't think so. I think, I feel like, yeah, it.

16:27
Erin Lanuti
Comes down to measurement, right. So I can't tell you how many people at all the agencies I've worked with. Right. And I think recently I was at a conference and someone Stood on the set, on the stage and said, can we just agree right now that to enter something and say, you reach 3 billion people enough. Right. Like, what does that mean? Right. And I think that did PR a bit of a disservice, Right, because it didn't allow us to measure something in a way that the other disciplines could, so then they would get more money.

17:04
Daniel Nestle
Right? Yeah.

17:05
Erin Lanuti
And so I was always a proponent of trying to measure earned in ways that marketers and brands understood and to justify the ROI and the spend of it, which is why were always successful at getting good sized budgets.

17:21
Daniel Nestle
And so you, you invented or created Conversation of Commerce as a way to do that. What exactly was that measuring? How did you measure without pixels? Like, what was the thing?

17:33
Erin Lanuti
So we essentially, how it worked was a reporter would write a great story. Right. And we figured out a methodology which publicists, you know, got patents for, that essentially allowed us to take the headline of anything that was written in something like 60, 70 countries around the world, turn it into basically the equivalent of an earn ad that could be targeted without getting the rights to the content. Because we would drive people back to the content. Right. So the publisher won because were driving the traffic back. And we won because the people who wanted to see the content saw the content. Right, right. And so were able to measure all of this. And at the time, it was like huge, like the fact that this could be done and in so many different countries.

18:31
Daniel Nestle
Well, I mean, at the time and even now in some places, in some companies, as much to. Much to my chagrin, but also to the endless frustration of many people, many communicators and even marketers out there's still that dreaded ave measure that some companies insist on, or some communicators insist on because really great, a vanity metric that seems to keep that they think keeps their feet out of the fire. And because they could talk about huge numbers. Well, this amount of space would have cost $45,000 a day in this market. So we've actually earned $3.5 billion worth of coverage from this. Right. That, you know, find some marketers going to beat that. It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous conversation. But yet, I mean.

19:29
Erin Lanuti
Yeah, yeah.

19:30
Daniel Nestle
I mean, how many PowerPoints have you seen that in even recently? So, so what you're, what you're doing was a counter to that in a lot of ways.

19:39
Erin Lanuti
100%. I mean, conversation to Commerce is where I started. And then at Omnicom, I created Omni Earned ID which took it a step farther. And so with that, I would have been able to tell you, well, these are the people who actually read said article. So as a communicator, all of us have had a day where we're sitting at our desk about to have our first sip of coffee, and the dreaded phone call comes from angry CEO, right, who's like, oh, my God, have you read fill in the blank publication that told whatever story about them, right. In a negative way. And they think it's like, hit the panic button, go into crisis mode. Right. And so what were able to do with Omni Earned ID is actually say, well, wait a second, like, let's look at who's actually reading that content, right?

20:29
Erin Lanuti
So we could use some of the advertising and media data to say, okay, well, if I look at who actually went to that site and saw that content, like, is it even your target audience? Right. Question mark one. Right. And many times, I can't tell you, this happened very often, right? Where we would say, you know what, just wait, we're going to analyze this. We'll let you know who actually read it. Is it your target audience? Do you need to engage the crisis team? And a lot of the times the answer was no, right? It wasn't. It wasn't a huge fire. It was just a bad article that not even your target audience read.

21:13
Daniel Nestle
Yeah, I think most of the time the answer is no, actually. You know, in the vast majority of cases when an executive is angry or upset because he's got bad coverage or she's got bad coverage, look, they've got the Google alert set up. You know, nobody else does. And often it's just, you know, you have to pursue, you have to check it out, you have to make sure. But generally speaking, everybody lives in a bubble. Everybody lives in a bubble. And when they're an executive living in a bubble, any disturbance in the bubble is a disturbance to the universe. It just, it's the way it is. I mean, you know, as I like.

21:51
Erin Lanuti
To say, there's always a bigger C out there, right, to come down. So the CCO probably has the CEO or, you know, whomever above them who's coming down. So totally, 100% agree.

22:05
Daniel Nestle
You know, I was mostly on the corporate side. I mean, I spent a little time in agency, but I was mostly in house for the last, at least the last 10 years of my PR comms career. And, you know, you're getting from both ends because you have your agency people who are handing you these Measurement dashboards that are including. Just overblowing. It's clearly overstating the significance of certain coverage. And then you'll get a call or you'll hear that, oh, gosh, there's a little, you know, there's some little fire to put out in, you know, BFE somewhere, you know, like in the middle of nowhere.

22:47
Daniel Nestle
And then the executives don't have the, I guess the, the yardstick by which to measure if that's important or if that's not important because they're, they've been sort of conned in a way to think that every coverage is massive. Like everything, right? Every, well, every time we're covered, they're getting seen by 3 billion people.

23:09
Erin Lanuti
You know, so in fairness, right, I had to go to a lot of clients, right, and try and convince them to stop using the 1. Impressions. Right? Impressions as a metric is a horrible metric. Right. And the conversation would go something like this. Today, there are many more ways that we can help you justify the impact of communications. Right? We don't think impressions is the right metric. And here are all the reasons why. And said client would say, but it's in my KPIs, and I have to do what I had last year plus 10%. That's my KPI. So if you can convince my boss that it shouldn't be my KPI, then you can change it.

24:01
Daniel Nestle
Yeah. Who created the KPI in the first place is another question to ask later. Later. You know, when it comes to review time and you're making, you know, you're doing your next year plan, you know, people are just cut and pasting last year and adding 10%. Oh, you know, so that's perpetrating these crimes upon earned media or whatever you want to call it, these, this kind of. Oh, yeah, I did my, it was impressions last year. I'll be impressions this year. It's easiest thing to explain. No problems. You know, I always say that impressions are like. It's like I can see the highway from my window. And when I wave from my window, every passing car is an impression. Right. How many of them are going to remember the person in the window waving at them? The answer is more, most likely zero. Right.

24:50
Daniel Nestle
Depending on the time of day and what I'm wearing, I suppose. But it's like, it's just. And how far I am from the highway. It's that effective. And, you know, I had a couple CEOs who really appreciated that analogy. Then they have boards, though, the boards are telling them that, oh, well, impressions are in the book, so you have to talk about impressions. So I guess it's hard to get away from it. And I give a lot of grief to people for it. But I say, you know, you're right. There's. Do you have to be fair? There's, there's motivations, there's reasons, but we want to get away from that.

25:22
Erin Lanuti
Yeah, yeah.

25:23
Daniel Nestle
But we want to get away from that, you know, in measurement. And you know, the blessing I think of like SEO, like once SEO started to come around really heavy. And it's been, I mean, it's been around for 30 years now. So it's been around, but SEO, and then let's, you know, we'll slip into AI in a minute. But one of the blessings of this whole thing is that nobody talks about impressions anymore with this. It's not even a consideration. And I think that's thrown a lot of people in marketing comms who are accustomed to measuring easily measurable things, and now they don't know what the hell's going on.

26:06
Erin Lanuti
I keep saying measurement needs an intervention, right? It does, because we have better tech. Right. Than we've ever had. And the consumer journey has changed. And we have to ask ourselves why? Why are we measuring that? What's the importance of that metric? Is that still true today? Right. Is there a better way? And those are the questions like I was pushing my team to answer. Just question it. Because there's so many better things that people can do today that we couldn't have done a couple years ago. Right. Does it even matter anymore? Some of these things with the pace and the way things are changing, is that really the right best metric?

26:55
Daniel Nestle
Yeah. And there's a complexity now, too. Let me. There always has been, but now we can see it even more clearly. Not only because we're looking, we're, we're. The discovery side of things is from a fractured world of different channels and places and you have, you have search, you have AI search, you have, you know, every engine that's out there now. You have agents and you have whatever's coming next, but also like, you know, using those tools to find new insights and create new ways to measure on the other side. Leave us kind of, I guess, or free us. Either free us from excuses or. Oh, they free us from excuses. You know, like, it's one. You have to figure out which camp you're in.

27:46
Daniel Nestle
But you have been an inventor of this kind of stuff, like, of looking at the way that measurement is evolving and changing, you know, just how it's changing and you know what that means. I mean, Chief Innovation Officer, the innovation part is the kind of, probably the key in that title. So when you get. When you're at, you know, when you're at Omnicom PR Group and you're looking at measurement and thinking the things you're thinking, you know, that you just expressed, you know, you get, you do Omnicom earned id, and then you notice that the world's just continuing to change, right? What made you pick up on, you know, the importance of AI search before most people did, you know, and what, you know, what was that? What was the kind of process that happened there?

28:39
Erin Lanuti
You know, it's funny, right? I like to say that my career, if you look at it and you picked up on it at the start of the interview, right, Is nonlinear, right? I like to say offroaded a bit of my career. And this was a great example of how that helped me because I spent time as Global Solutions Officer at Performics, right, where I understood search and was building search solutions. And so when I started seeing and reading that AI search, you know, was coming, things were starting to change. I started digging in way before anybody else did, to the point where I would say about nine months before anyone was really talking about geo, I was already digging in, researching, talking to people, seeing if there was technology out there that could help us understand it.

29:36
Erin Lanuti
And I. I can't even tell you how many explainer memos I had to write to my management team, right, to be, you know, they'd be like, what is she working on? Right? And I give my boss a ton of credit because he was like, I have no idea, but let her keep going, right? And so what it was that really concerned me was the notion that here was this new technology, right? That you would ask it a question, it would give you answer. And as a brand, I had no idea what it was saying about me, right? So it could be recommending me, it could be saying, the example I used to give all the time was, you know, what if the AI search came back and said, you know, eat a Tide Pod and your skin is going to glow, right?

30:24
Erin Lanuti
Well, your skin's going to glow and you're going to die, right? And so now we've got legal and reputational risk. And so I would go to the lawyers, I would go to my clients and say, like, this is really concerning me. Like, are you guys thinking about this? Right? And they were like, wow, you Know, no one's really come to us with this. And I said so first to me, I saw it clear as day as a reputational risk. Right, yeah. And the more I dug into it, I started looking at it and saying, well, wait a second, if the journey's changing, right, what does, what's the implication for a brand? Do they show up anymore? Right. Who shows up? And so those were the things that kept me up at night for about nine months as I was building the offering.

31:12
Daniel Nestle
Oh, look, little.

31:13
Erin Lanuti
Little cameo from the dog.

31:16
Daniel Nestle
Yeah, we like those. So, yeah, so, okay, so. So that was keeping you up, like you were looking at what's showing up in. If I look for Tide Pod, if I look for Tide, is it going to give me a story of people eating the Tide Pods, or is it going to tell me what a great, cleaner tide is? You know, there's. Or detergent Tide is, forgive me, Tide people. Png. It's like, I am not very versed in the world of detergents. However, I've seen Tide Pods, you know, and I've heard all the nonsense about them and I've seen AI results that maybe not particularly about Tide, but that are just ridiculously, you know, off kilter and still do, but particularly at the beginning, like, particularly in the early days of ChatGPT, where you had two things going on at once. Right.

32:12
Daniel Nestle
You had, number one, a vastly uneducated population, and still, for the most part, still mostly uneducated about this. But we're a little bit in a little better place now than they were, than were two and a half, three years. It's only been three years. Can you believe that? But you had this populace that doesn't understand how it works. You have a company that's pushing this out there that is less than ethical, let's say. And, you know, the trading data was what people were getting because this is before they enabled search.

32:46
Erin Lanuti
Yep.

32:47
Daniel Nestle
So people at first are searching only through trading data and, you know, the amount of control any brand could exert upon that those results was, if not zero. Very, very close to zero, because we didn't know how. It was just some magical shit that was coming up out of the training data.

33:09
Erin Lanuti
Yeah.

33:09
Daniel Nestle
So then web search happens and then the game changes and.

33:13
Erin Lanuti
Yep. Web search query, fan out. Yep.

33:16
Daniel Nestle
Yeah. And when you saw that, okay, so you saw that, you know, you said there were no solutions out there. Like, so how did you build? Like, what was the. I Know, you can't say how you built it is patented.

33:26
Erin Lanuti
But we literally interviewed company after company, and I would say to all of them, and I'm sure some of them will listen to this, and, like, my line would always be, we're big, we break people. Right. So I have to feel confident that you're not going to break if I have five things running in your system at a time, Right?

33:46
Daniel Nestle
Yeah.

33:47
Erin Lanuti
And so, you know, everyone would say, of course we can do it. And every single one of them would fail. Right. And then finally we found at the time, Bluefish. And Bluefish was the first that could actually handle this at scale. And so started going to market with them, helping build out the solution for what we needed. And then from there, what happened was really, we started going to clients and saying, all right, like, let's. Let's run the brands. Right? And then we started seeing that these sources that no one had ever heard of, our favorite for months was this company called shavercheck.com. Okay.

34:40
Daniel Nestle
Shavercheck.com.

34:42
Erin Lanuti
Shavercheck.com. Okay. Still to this day, it's one of the most authoritative sources for anything shaving anywhere in the world. Okay. Which is crazy. Not gq, not like all the sources in the places Brands were buying, this place, Right. And all of us were floored. And it went on for months that were like, how is this even possible? Right? So then it became a thing of, well, wait a second. Like, there's a whole different universe of sources that we need to be paying attention to and pitching to and talking to. Right. That these AI sees as authoritative. What are the implications for our earned media plan? Plan. What are the implications for our paid media plan? Right. And so forth. So it just became this huge journey.

35:33
Erin Lanuti
And then going back to my integrated marketing days, it was very clear that everything needed to work together. Right? So earned media, you know, what I was doing there, the SEO, commerce, all of that needed to align for the AI to say, yup, this is accurate. You are who you are, or the brand is what it is, and therefore, I'm going to surface it. Right. And that was a huge initiative at Omnicom to get all of these teams. We tried it before with integrated marketing. Now we had to try it again, but in a much more meaningful way, because if it wasn't and the signal fragmented, then the brand wouldn't get the result that they wanted.

36:22
Daniel Nestle
Yeah, yeah. I clearly was. Was involved in the space by this time. Like, I was really in by this. By this point. I was what you're talking about. I was already digging into AI on the content and the creation side for the most part. And you know, I had been out there and not that long ago. I mean there's evidence. You can find it. Where I was declaring media relations was dead, right? I was saying media relations dead because really blasphemous. Well, you know, with a. No, I said media relations is dying and we need to let it go. That was the exact quote with. A lot of the point is that media relations is really not dead. But it had to change.

37:07
Daniel Nestle
There has to be a completely different approach to media relations in the age of the fractured environment and the multiple channels and the multiple stakeholders. But then, okay, so then around that time, PR agencies and certainly some professionals started to notice that citations were the key to getting into AI search. And the immediate react is, I mean you could almost count. You almost take two breaths and be. And that's how fast it was. From a depressed and despondent industry of PR people who are like, my core skills are no longer valid. I'm writing something else, can write these things faster. And the analysis of media, blah, blah, AI is just much better and faster. What am I going to do? Oh, woe is me. Well, suddenly now, oh, wait a second, hang on. We need citations.

38:10
Daniel Nestle
And we don't just need top tier, we need all of them. And in fact, we probably need trades more like the AI loves trades. AI loves, you know, wikis, AI loves this stuff. So it's not just let's shoot for the New York Times now, it's let's shoot for Industry Week and it's complete. Boy, oh boy, did the data industry turn around like in three seconds. And then you had these people going out there claiming that now we're on the. It's the golden age of pr. Yeah, forget the naysayers. We're in the driver's seat.

38:43
Erin Lanuti
But you know what, Dan? The interesting thing is a year ago I can right when I was at Cannes, I would ask everybody the same question. I would say, help me understand how in a world where advertising budgets are getting cut right, to these publications and we're losing tons of earned media outlets every day, right? Newspapers, magazines, da, da. In this new world of geo, when earned is more important than ever, if they're all shutting down, how are we going to get those earned citations? Right?

39:21
Daniel Nestle
Yeah.

39:21
Erin Lanuti
This was my question a year ago at Cannes and no one had answer for me. And I was like, well, don't you See it like, don't you see how this circle doesn't work? Right. Something is breaking. And so I think what you're saying is absolutely right. But the challenge is the marketing ecosystem still works or at least at that time a year ago, vastly in silos. Right. So you know, if the budgets for paid and even still, I will tell you, there was a massive contingent at Omnicom that was like, oh, this is just paid search. Like you can do paid, paid and it's all going to be paid, right? And I was like, I don't think so. But you know, so again, I don't think, I think, yes, earned is more important than ever because we need the citations.

40:16
Erin Lanuti
I do still very much worry about publishers and sources. We are seeing substack. Right. Come through in results, which is great. But I do still have concern for these outlets shuddering at the pace they still continue to.

40:34
Daniel Nestle
Absolutely. There's no question where I was going with the whole thing is that this incredibly huge focus on citations as the lever is. It's not the lever, it's a lever. And that's what I was trying to say to my audiences and certainly to people who would come talk to me about it. It's like, yeah, I mean, okay, granted, give me some crow. It's fine. Media relations not dying, I hear you. But it still has to be different because you have to convince your leadership that the amount of time and money you're going to put into trying to pursue the New York Times is going to be far better spent and yield far better results in pursuing, you know, Concrete Weekly. Like that's just the way it is. You'll get more long term value out of that. You'll get, you'll.

41:26
Daniel Nestle
The citations are more likely, not guaranteed, but likely to happen. So, so looking at the citations, right, so PR is, I think the PR industry has been, has benefited a lot, but certainly has to change the way that they approach things. You're looking at it from brand side, right? So we're looking at it as how brands are getting themselves, you know, kind of a company with a PR department can pitch all of the, all the above. An agency is, is built for this. They're built for going out there and securing, you know, coverage placements, et cetera, among many other things. But just media relations side coverage placements in every level of media. And you know, it's all focused on their clients. But as you said, there's an asymmetry Right. There's this whole like, whole thing, you know, with everything's about the brand.

42:23
Daniel Nestle
But what about me? What about, what about the person? What about the individual? Which is where I've been focusing. And there's a, an industry, let's call it that, that popped up over the last 20 years maybe. And I, I think it has maybe two polar ends to it at one end you've got like Gary Vee. Right. And at the other end you have like Mark Schaeffer and like Joe Polizzi. You have in the end the industry. So, you know, or category so to speak, is of course called personal brand. People hear personal brand and they think, most of them unfortunately think more towards the Gary Vee side. It's a game, you know, squeeze the lemons or whatever he says, squeeze the juice out of everything, post 400 times a day, whatever it is.

43:21
Daniel Nestle
I don't know what the latest is with him, but he got to the point where he says something and everybody believes it is the thing you must do. So everybody goes and does it. Whereas you have the thinkers and the futurists and the actual scholars and the folks who study anthropology and psychology and marketing and everything, and they're the ones who are saying it takes a really long time to build yourself up as an expert, as an authority, as an authoritative source. Time, consistency and of course skill and the truth. And you have to be an expert in the thing you're trying to build yourself an expert in, which is far more, I think, real and normal and ethical. So income's personal brand, what do we do about ourselves on the engines?

44:12
Daniel Nestle
And frankly, until we got together, I have not seen anybody doing anything about what's happening with people on the engines.

44:25
Erin Lanuti
A hundred percent.

44:26
Daniel Nestle
How'd you make that shift?

44:28
Erin Lanuti
So the big thing is like you, right, Everyone has been focused on companies and it became really clear that if you're a doctor, lawyer, CEO of a bank or you know, that these professionals, like the same risk that I saw for companies holds true with professionals, but no one was talking about it. Right?

44:55
Daniel Nestle
Yeah.

44:57
Erin Lanuti
And knowing all the different tech companies, you know, in the geo space, like they're all grounded in websites. Right. Which doesn't work particularly well if you're trying to get to exact visibility, personal reputation, all of that stuff. Yeah. So getting together with you and creating a new product, call authority Graph, that product enables individuals to understand their. How the AI portrays them across five dimensions. Right. Like so does the AI know who you are? Does it know, you know, what you. About your IP or things that, like, you stand for. Right. And is it drifting from those things? Like, so we analyze against five elements to make sure that we are understanding who you are and making sure that the AI portrays you. So the system actually analyzes across ChatGPT, Claude, Perplexity, Gemini. Right. Against what we call a source of truth artifact. Right.

46:12
Erin Lanuti
And that is basically a document that essentially allows you to say, this is who I am. This is my work history. Right. This is what I've done. You're the topics that, like, I'm known for or, you know, my ip. Right. And from there, the system looks at it to say, okay, are. Are you visible? Are you accurately portrayed, like, all these different things? And the crazy thing about it, I. I know for me, at least, I don't know if you feel the same thing, Dan, but when we started testing this, Dan and I typically use ourselves, right? We dog. We dog food, right? Like, we. We eat our own stuff and like, we play off of each other. Oh, your visibility's higher. Oh, you have more drift calls we had. Like, if they were recorded, the audience would find amusing, for sure.

47:01
Erin Lanuti
But when we started pulling other people. Right. Is when I think the penny dropped right where we started to see, oh, my gosh, these are some of the biggest names in fill in a blank industry. Right? And maybe the AI, you know, search shows them about 60% of the time. And on average, I would say maybe within that 50% of that 60. It gets them. Right, right. Yeah. It could be a name drift. It could be some scandalous something which we're seeing for people. Right. Where. Where, you know, it thinks you're somebody else and therefore you're associated with all these horrible things. Right? And the crazy part about all of this is it's completely invisible, right. To you right now. It's completely invisible. So you have no idea it's happening. You have no idea.

47:59
Erin Lanuti
You know, it's like a really bad game of telephone, right? Someone asks a question, and then you have absolutely no idea what comes out the other side, Right?

48:09
Daniel Nestle
Yeah.

48:10
Erin Lanuti
And that's. That's what's happening every day with AI and professionals don't know.

48:14
Daniel Nestle
They have no idea. And, you know, to circle back to the personal brand issue, right? So some people might say that this is a. Okay, we're doubling down on personal brand. We're measuring personal brand for sure. Because the good news is for people who have been working on their personal brands, who are experts, whether they're by themselves or inside of a company that Means you got a lot of content out there. Right. If you've been doing the work, it means you have got a lot of content. It means you have a presence. It means your LinkedIn profile is full, whether it's optimized or not. It's a separate issue, but it's out there. So there's more information for AI to draw from. So AI is more likely to get you. Right. It makes sense. But.

49:01
Erin Lanuti
But I almost feel like personal brand needs a reset. Dan, I, Yeah, I agree with you because. Because we hear. How many times a week do we hear from people, oh, I don't want to promote myself. Right, right. And it's like. Well, it's not promoting yourself, it's making sure you're, you know, like the AI understands who you are and says, like, portrays you in a way that is accurate. Right? Yeah. And also how things have changed, I would say, with the value that individuals and what individuals say about, like, their company's products and services now carries more weight on platforms like LinkedIn than the company saying that. Right. So there's a couple things that have all come together in a big mixing bowl. Right. That. That means, to me, I actually wonder if there is a reset button on personal brand.

49:57
Erin Lanuti
Like, I think it fundamentally has changed.

50:00
Daniel Nestle
I think it's expanded in some ways. Like you still have, and we still need to be building your personal brand, which, let's just say, for the sake of conversation, let's swap out some terms there. What we mean by that is a combination of things. It's a combination of your reputation, your integrity, your known integrity, let's say your body of work. It's like, it's all of this stuff put together where the stars have to align, or maybe that's the wrong way to say it, where you've built it so that you, you stand on solid ground. If you say that you're an expert in pr, in AI and pr, there's evidence, there's a long evidence trail. You've been doing it for a long time.

50:42
Daniel Nestle
And then if you've been doing it enough and in the right channels and being smart about who you're talking to and actually having an opinion every now and then will have a stronger presence. You'll have a str. You'll be known in a better way or in a stronger way. This, this is, these are just kind of what happens after you do it for eight, for 18 months, two years, whatever the. The other, you know, that's that. And that May be people confused with being promotional, like promoting myself, but at the same time, if there's nothing there, if you don't have a brand, right, then you have nothing to defend yourself against. You have nothing to prevent somebody else from filling it in for you. It's the same thing as for companies.

51:31
Daniel Nestle
When a company brand is weak, then it gets attacked or there's a bad story. It has to expend so many more resources, so much more time. Sometimes it's impossible even to recover from the, whatever that hit is because there's no karma in the system. There's no trust in the system, there's no knowledge in the system. Why do I care about those guys? It's going to be the same thing. Why do I care about you? I don't care about this person. I don't know this person. So with, you know, with authority graph and you know, the work that we're doing, it lays out the picture for the individual. Whether it's you know, an executive or somebody like who's, you know, so called thought leader. Like it's, it lays out that picture so that you know where you stand in a way.

52:24
Daniel Nestle
You know, what's being kind of, we keep saying, said about you, but it's actually what AI is, is broadcasting about you. I don't know, or transmitting about you. But like what is the information that's out there that's being distributed about you without you ever being involved in that conversation. And yeah, no, I was gonna say like the entirety of this, like if you look at that as a discipline, looking at the individual, we're calling that authority intelligence. It's, you know, people have asked me about this like what does that mean? You have to be smart about authority? Well, yeah, you do, but really think about it as intel, like the body of like the, the diagnostics, the metrics, the analytics that, all of that stuff that is around the topic of authority, the intelligence you need to make good decisions about your authority.

53:22
Daniel Nestle
And that's, it is amorphous a little bit sometimes, but I think it's incredibly important right now moving forward into where we're going.

53:32
Erin Lanuti
It's huge. I mean one of the things, I mean you've heard me say this for the last couple weeks, right? Is that, you know, in the data that we've been pulling, we are seeing that people like you and I and people way more, you know, authoritative and famous than both of us. Right. That, that we have spent our entire career building our authority or stature for humans. Right?

53:58
Daniel Nestle
Yeah.

53:59
Erin Lanuti
But guess what? The AI is not human. And it doesn't just take stature and all of that like exists. So you have to rebuild it for a machine. Right. And that to me has been mind blowing. Right. That, that it doesn't transfer and that as we look at some of the most respected people in the world that we've been doing some analyses on, that these people should be perfect in the AI system.

54:31
Daniel Nestle
Right.

54:31
Erin Lanuti
And they're far from perfect. So I think for me the opportunity and the threat is that there are people that have way less authority but know how to game the system. Right. They know that if they assemble, right, they have a clear picture around a topic, clear, concise, consistent. Right. That their authority in the eyes of a machine can be perceived higher than people who without question have higher status. Right. Or stature.

55:08
Daniel Nestle
Oh, 100%.

55:08
Erin Lanuti
Yeah. And that to me is the threat that exists right now.

55:13
Daniel Nestle
Yeah, well, it's also like I was just thinking about how the brand versus individual thing, of course it's different. The way you measure is different. The kind of, the tools that are used have to be different because you're looking at a different source point. Right. And a different trajectory and there's so many different things about it. And we know this. We meaning you and I. I don't know if all of our audience knows it, but we know this. What sort of dawned on me is that individuals now can follow the brand playbook for SEO Geo, right. And raise their profile in good ways and bad ways so you can, you know, we're going to see more and more of this kind of individual black hat nonsense happening.

56:02
Daniel Nestle
You know, if a company can create 100 web pages with 100 FAQ schemas and like you just put out like their site maps everywhere, AI is going to grab them because AI is easy to read, that AI wants to go the easy path. Well, what's to stop a person from doing the same thing? You know, like it's, it's just time and ambition maybe. And I bet you there's plenty of people who are already, you know, trying that. Gary Vee. Did I say Gary V. I don't know. I'm sorry, Gary. I, I just, you know, I'm just throwing that out there.

56:37
Erin Lanuti
But honestly, even for us, Dan, like we're seeing it in the data, right? Like, and I liken it to the early days of social listening, right, where you're starting to see things in the data that you're like, whoa. So even in our data, like we see that people are trying to come into our space and claim some of the things that we have IP ownership over. Right, that's right. And we would have no idea that was happening if we didn't have this technology.

57:06
Daniel Nestle
Yeah, yeah. And, and if we weren't like very focused on like understanding who the leaders are in a particular spot, who the, like what AI is saying about these people and just digging down and digging down. It's, it's in many ways it's just, I think smart practice for any company to do or any person to do is to think about, you know, what are you known for? Who else is known for it? And can I get a share of that pie or ahead of that pie? You know, what's my share? You need to think about that as.

57:40
Erin Lanuti
A business, especially when agentic comes into a play. Right. Like when there is no human in the loop and an agent talks to an agent. Right. You have no ability to influence that unless it's already been influenced in the system itself.

57:57
Daniel Nestle
Yeah. And that brings up a really interesting difference here too because used to be able to say, and if I have the book somewhere back there, I think it was in PR two point. I forget which book it was, but 2000, something like 20 years ago, there's books written about PR and like your own protecting your reputation, the number one thing you should do is what? Search yourself, Search for yourself, Google yourself. You still should Google yourself as often as you feel that is not embarrassing to yourself, but you should Google. But now it's like, well, I should also chat GPT myself and I should also Claude myself. You know, like, hey, hang on just a second time out. It's not a bad idea. Right.

58:46
Daniel Nestle
But kind of like with Google, you're gonna get results that are in your neighborhood because you live in a certain place. And Google has a lot more personalization than that than people realize. But with AI it's even worse. With AI, especially if you've been using ChatGPT for a month or two, your results are going to always show you as a leader in that space. Like ChatGPT is not going to leave you out of the list because it likes you and it wants us want to offend you. So those using the tools themselves as a consumer to look for where you rank or rank is the wrong word, how you show up is really not very effective. Right. You have to do that at scale.

59:36
Daniel Nestle
But when it comes to the agents and when it comes to machines, you have no way of checking what they're doing. When a company has an agent that is evaluating marketing proposals or RFPs of any kind, you're in an agency, you send an RFP into a company. The company now has a system that's going to evaluate that and the agent it creates is going to. What it's going to analyze. And as part of the analysis, it's going to say, oh, this is the team that's on this project. Let me go look for these people without a human being involved even once.

01:00:13
Daniel Nestle
It's going to evaluate the authority of each member of that team and make a judgment call about whether or not this RFP is worth, or this response to the RFP is worth, is worth further look, you know, so you're not even in it anymore. It's crazy. And that's why we're here. Yes, it is. It's. I gotta say, look, you know that we're having a lot of fun at this, right? And you know, you, me and Todd are building something I think is, I'm super proud of. And you know, it is my life right now and hopefully will be for a long time. So forgive us listeners if we sounded a little bit, you know, promotional. But this is, you know, this is a kind of, you know, I think it's a challenge.

01:01:03
Daniel Nestle
It's facing everybody is what, how do you position yourself, your clients, your people, so that you're discoverable and you're not. You don't fade away into nothingness in the world of AI or somebody doesn't take your place, you know, And.

01:01:22
Erin Lanuti
I think the lack of understanding of that is so huge. It's bigger because you and I are so close to it. But it amazes me every single day when I talk to people and they still just don't even understand it. And that to me is the most concerning part about the work that we're doing, is that the risk is out there and it's an invisible risk. Right? And, and that is something that hopefully we can help people with, especially if.

01:01:51
Daniel Nestle
You have a common name, you know, or if you're, or if your last name is very similar to a major corporation on earth. Right? I mean, if I didn't, if I wasn't working on my quote unquote personal brand for the last several years, if I didn't have the trending communicator Every AI search would say that I've been an employee of the Nestle Corporation, or it would say that I'm an executive at Nestle, or it would say something related to Nestle Purina, none of which are true, but all of which have appeared in various searches about me. But I have built to a degree the authority that defends against that pushes that stuff out.

01:02:38
Daniel Nestle
And unfortunately for people, I think for a lot of people out there who have common names and who have, you know, who have this kind of an issue, and we call them name collisions, you know, that requires even a little extra work on your part. But how do you even, you won't even know that's happening unless you check, unless you have a method of finding that out. It's, I don't know, every time it's something new. It's, it's just so much fun to figure all this stuff out, you know, 100%. So, Aaron, as much as I would like to continue talking to you, and I have a feeling after we stop this, this, this recording, I'll probably talk to you within the next hour or so anyway.

01:03:14
Daniel Nestle
But, you know, regardless of all that, let's turn away from, from authority intelligence for just a second or for the rest of this show. And I just want to know, as an expert in the field of AI communications marketing, and somebody who has a lot of exposure to the way that corporate America works, the way that, the direction that a lot of these departments are going, et cetera. So as Aaron lanoudi, in other words, what's keeping you up at night? What do you think is the big thing that we need to look out for, you know, in the next year or so as communicators and as marketers,.

01:04:05
Erin Lanuti
I think the biggest threat that I am seeing and hearing every day is that our clients are looking at our value and saying, do I need you anymore?

01:04:21
Daniel Nestle
Right?

01:04:23
Erin Lanuti
Clients are saying, well, wait, I have chatgpt, I have Claude, right? I can write a press release in 20 minutes. I've got comms professionals on my staff, right? Like, and it's going to take you three weeks to come back to me and cost X amount of money. Like, does that make sense? Right? And I think the challenge is these are the things that I'm hearing from brands right now. I don't think the agencies are having honest dialogues with the clients to basically say, all right, these are the things that, you know, you should take in house, right? They're commoditized. You can do them. But you know what? As an agency, my value is in looking into the future, seeing around corners. Right. Helping you with higher order thinking, all of those things. Right.

01:05:18
Erin Lanuti
And I think that's a really important conversation to have with clients right now because they're very much struggling with what do I do. I don't see the value. I can build an agent for that. Right.

01:05:33
Daniel Nestle
Yep.

01:05:35
Erin Lanuti
So I think that to me would be the biggest thing that I am seeing and hearing.

01:05:42
Daniel Nestle
That's so true. I hear that all the time as well. Other and other guests have said the same thing with. Fundamentally, we have to change the value proposition of what we do, certainly on the agency side. Right. And I think agencies have us have particular advantages that they haven't necessarily uncovered yet. Which is, which are the collection of, or the convening of a particular group of people who are all by nature very curious with this, this incredible ability to ask a lot of questions, think critically, read fast and write fast. Put that together in a little kind of, you know, soup. Mix it up in the big kettle as it were, cauldron maybe. And that's going to be a very potent combination for dealing with the. Okay, you have AI so now what do you do with it, you know, or.

01:06:46
Daniel Nestle
Well, I see that you're writing your press releases and you know, you have your prompts all set up, which is going away too, probably at some point. But, you know, what does that mean for the next level? What is, what kind of things can we now deliver that they can't do with those things? You know, and we will be using AI to do that. You know, we will be. So there's a way out. There's a way that you're not going to get that people aren't going to get fired and people shouldn't be laid off. There's going to be a. I think there's going to be a tremendous amount of job creation. It's going to be a lag maybe before that happens, but the agencies are in a sweet spot to make that happen, I think. I hope.

01:07:26
Erin Lanuti
Oh, I totally agree. I think the agencies have a tremendous opportunity right now to redefine. Right. Their, their value. And I think the clients are open to hearing it, but I don't know how long that window is going to last. Right.

01:07:44
Daniel Nestle
Yeah. Yeah, it's. Well, it's going to like. It's so fast now. Things change all the time and clients are being, clients have been burned. I mean, whether it's by the PR agencies or ad agencies or some other vendor or some other partner. They've been burned about how important it is to get AI going. AI transformation is. Is really rocky, to say the least. They're getting, you know, C suites are squeezed between boards and investors. And, you know, this. This kind of unrealistic expectation about what AI was supposed to do for them. You know, I've been calling it the big oops. Like they fired, you know, they let go all these people, and now it's like, wait a second, we let go all these people so we don't have any more institutional knowledge. And now AI is here, but we haven't seen the productivity boost.

01:08:30
Daniel Nestle
Oops. I think we need to bring these people back, right? And we'll get the U turn to a point. I think a lot of folks are not gonna go back. But anyway, I mean, whether or not that bears out bears to be true, we're certainly at the beginning of something really interesting, I think, or in the middle of something interesting. Aaron, this is. It's been amazing. I'm so glad you came on the show and we talked about.

01:08:51
Erin Lanuti
I'm so excited to make the cut to be on this show. Are you kidding?

01:08:56
Daniel Nestle
Well, you know, I do what I can. I know I can pull some strings. And I feel like we talked a lot about what Lilypath does, and that's great. You know, I want our listeners to understand what I'm doing. I also think that we're doing something important and I want our company to grow. So, you know, it doesn't hurt to be a little promotional. At the same time, I just want people to reach out to you because you have this tremendous body of knowledge about what's going on in PR and comms marketing, and you do put out some incredible content. Check out Aaron on LinkedIn. Of course. Erin Linuty. And her name will be spelled properly in the episode title. You can check her out@lillypath.com as you can find me as well. And you can go to aaronlanoudi.com as of yesterday. Today.

01:09:47
Erin Lanuti
Yeah, as of yesterday. It's very exciting.

01:09:50
Daniel Nestle
Look, I mean, I'll tell you something. Anybody out there, if you want to know the different things you need to do to be visible, to defend against invisibility and to kind of protect your authority and be represented in the right way on AI, of course you should come to Lilypath, but watch what Aaron's doing. Just track her. Just follow Aaron. Look at how she's built her profile. Look at her website. There's a lot more to it, but doing all the things is what we're doing to make sure that we walk the walk as much as talk to talk, I think.

01:10:24
Erin Lanuti
Oh, huge heart.

01:10:27
Daniel Nestle
Well, Aaron, thank you so much. And you're gonna have to come back again very soon.

01:10:32
Erin Lanuti
I would love that. Thank you for having me again. So much fun. Thank you.

01:10:39
Daniel Nestle
Thanks for taking the time to listen in on today's conversation. If you enjoyed it, please be sure to subscribe through the podcast player of your choice. Share with your friends and colleagues and leave me a review. Five stars would be preferred. It's your call. Have ideas for future guests? Want to be on the show? Let me know@dantrendingcommunicator.com thanks again for listening to the trending Communicator.

01:11:11
Erin Lanuti
Sam.