Stockholm Syndrome in PR: The Boutique Uprising - with Barrie Cohen

00:00
Daniel Nestle
Welcome or welcome back to the trending Communicator. I'm your host, Dan Nestle. Does the PR industry have Stockholm syndrome? I mean, think about it. We're held captive by every shiny disruption that promises to kill us. First, the Internet was going to eliminate all us gatekeepers, and then social media made press releases obsolete. Now AI is supposedly making human writers an endangered species. And what do we do? We fall in love with each threat. We scramble to prove we're still relevant, and then we wait anxiously for the next thing that's going to destroy us. We're so busy defending ourselves against technological disruption that maybe we miss the evolution in our industry that's happening right in front of our noses. Because maybe the evolution isn't technical, it's structural. See, there's something happening that's transforming the traditional agency model.

01:04
Daniel Nestle
While holding companies lay off hundreds or more boutique firms like one person, five people, you know, you get the idea. Are taking on internal comms, executive positioning, media relations, you name it. And they're landing the big gigs. They're landing top tier media features, national TV segments, big corporate contracts. The question isn't whether agencies are dying. It's whether you need 50 people to do what one strategist with AI and the right relationships can accomplish. Well, today's guest has some insight into all this. I think she walked away from Philadelphia agency life and built a boutique operation that secured placements in, like, muscle and fitness, Huffington Post television segments, things that the big agencies had trouble landing. And it wasn't by throwing bodies at accounts, but by doing what large firms forgot how to do.

01:54
Daniel Nestle
She spent years working in agency trenches, working the NFL draft campaigns, international product launches with MMA champions. She's not all about sports. There just is a lot of sports in what she does. She's a Rise Women in Healthcare Leadership summit speaker. She's been profiled in Authority magazine. And now, from the glorious heights of Denver, Colorado, she's breaking the traditional model and loving every minute of it. Making her debut here on the trending Communicator, the founder and CEO of Barry Cohen Public Relations. You might have guessed her name. Barry Cohen. Here she is.

02:29
Barrie Cohen
Hey, Barry. Hi there. You made me sound so amazing, I don't even think I need to talk like I'm done.

02:34
Daniel Nestle
We're done. Okay, thanks, everybody. Thanks for tuning in. Yeah, I like to make sure that there's not only a respectful kind of lead in to my guests. I mean, I admire everybody who's on the show, and the least I could do is put together something that's I believe, accurate. Try not to be fluffy about it. But you're here for a reason. You're here because know you're accomplished in your field and in our field as it were and I think people need to hear from you and that's why you're here. So, so I'm glad you're here and glad we met. So welcome. And you know, all the way up there from Denver. Gosh, yeah, I think I've been there once.

03:22
Daniel Nestle
Yeah, I, I, I've never actually been to Denver proper, just the airport and anybody's been to Denver Airport, you know that humans did not design that place. That is just, that's ridiculously terrible. Airport. It's the worst.

03:36
Barrie Cohen
Yeah, it is. It's mind blowing. I mean I travel a lot and so I'm there often and almost every month it changes. Like it's wild. I've seen the evolution and I'm right outside of Denver. Like I, when we first moved here, I lived in Denver and now we're in the suburbs and I get to see the mountains, nice kitchen every day and so like I can't complain.

03:57
Daniel Nestle
That's nice. You know. So you're just outside of Denver, which means you're only like four and a half hours from Denver Airport. Right? It's like the airport is so far from everything in Denver, it's crazy.

04:05
Barrie Cohen
That's. Once you get to the airport, even when you're in there, you're still four hours from getting to the gate or getting anywhere where you need to go.

04:11
Daniel Nestle
Yeah, I know. We're going to be talking about communications and the trending communicator, all that. But my one experience at Denver International Airport, I had status at the time. I was flying to Japan all the time. So I had tons and tons. I was like global services, whatever for United. And I landed from, I forget what was going like from. I think I was transferring from Arizona and then heading back home and I landed in one side of the airport, plane was a little bit delayed and like, no, don't worry, no worries, I'll walk. It's like same terminal, theoretically. And the folks were like, no, you don't want to walk that. Like I'm like, why? It's like, well you're going, you're landing in this number. Believe me, it's going to be a 30 minute walk. Like, you're kidding me.

05:00
Daniel Nestle
So I get, so I land and there's somebody waiting for me with a placard, you know, Dan Nestle and that's never happened to me before, you know, but it's because of the global services thing. And they're like, no, you're not going to make it to your next flight. Trust me. Trust us. Right? And they put me in a car and drove me around on the grounds to the other side of the. And I, even the drive was like 20 minutes. Like it was crazy. Such a far huge airport. So, you know, I don't know who designed that thing. And I, I.

05:39
Barrie Cohen
Reptile people and the aliens that live under the airport.

05:42
Daniel Nestle
I wonder, I wonder who's doing their pr. Maybe they need a new. Like that's not going to help the.

05:47
Barrie Cohen
Distance, you know, but it's wild. They designed an airport too, I think. I mean it sounds like you had top notch service, which doesn't luckily for any of us.

05:57
Daniel Nestle
Not anymore, by the way. Not anymore, by the way. You know, Covid killed all that for me. I don't have any more status.

06:03
Barrie Cohen
Yeah, well, it's crazy because you can only get to one terminal walking and all the other ones a train. And I don't know who thought that was a good idea because I've been there when the train breaks down and that's your only means of getting to your terminal. What, like how does that make sense? And it's one of the busiest airports. I mean, yeah, it's beautiful here. We live in a nice place. People come and go a lot. And I, yeah, it's wild. It's really wild.

06:31
Daniel Nestle
It's not necessarily built for purpose, which is kind of, you know, I'm trying to work the metaphor in here. It's like, it's like our industry right now. Like, like the PR world. Right? Are we built for purpose? Are we not? And I think, you know, there's a lot happening certainly on the agency side and even a solo operators now and corporate comms that, you know, you don't know which way is up. It's hard to know what is coming next. And with AI of course, everything is just, is changing one way or another. You know, even though adoption might not be where the kind of the tech bros. Said it would be, it is unquestionably getting in there, creeping in and making our world different, but making our jobs different. And some of us haven't quite grasped that yet.

07:25
Daniel Nestle
But I think the agencies should be ahead of all of this because you know, they're supposed to be looking at what's coming next. And I think the big agencies are looking at what's coming next and they're saying they're thinking, my gosh, the smaller shops. Where they should be thinking the smaller shops have. Have a big advantage they've never had before. And how are you feeling about that? So coming from your running your own show, let's talk about, like, how did you get to run your. To, you know, to build your firm? And what were the things about the big agency culture and the big agency world that you wanted to jettison before you started your company? And we'll work into the other stuff.

08:17
Barrie Cohen
Yeah, no, so when I started, so I actually worked for other small agencies, but had known lots of people in the big agencies, but they run similarly despite size. I think there's this agency model that's very traditional. And I think a lot of what I saw was just information that I wasn't getting. There wasn't a lot of transparency in that world. And so I understand that from a business perspective, right? You're running a business. You're not going to tell your employees how to write contracts or money or any of those things. But there was, I think, a need that I saw, especially when I was working with clients that weren't of my choosing. Right. When you work for other people, and I value those opportunities, I still didn't get to work in the industries or the people that I wanted to work with.

09:05
Barrie Cohen
And so I guess I can shift back when I got my start, it was with a family friend. And so I had no training in pr. I don't have degrees in pr. I didn't study it. And I sort of fell into it, one, with a family friend who gave me a job. And two, because writing was my background and I was an avid reader, avid writer, and I wanted to utilize that in a way that was productive. It also makes money because I realized early on, say Note wanted to be a poet. And my parents were like, hell no, you are not going to make any money. And I was not paying for you to study that. That was a great lead for me.

09:42
Barrie Cohen
But I wanted to take those creative writing skills and utilize them in a way that helped people and impacted people's businesses and their communities. And so got my start outside of Philly and then in Philly working for these agencies on the smaller side, but more of that traditional model. And like a lot of us and a lot of people, like, I had a situation where I was in a toxic workplace. And so I left. And that was sort of the Catalyst enough for me to be like, cool, I can do this job too, and I can be nice and do it how I want to do it. And so quit my job, woke up the next day and was like, I'm going to start a business. And with being green in pr, super green in business, like, no plan, no idea, nothing.

10:30
Barrie Cohen
And I just really knew, I think right away that I wanted this personal touch that I was missing. Like I would interact with clients, but I didn't get to know them on a level that I felt connected or passionate about them. And so I think seeing that, seeing this more transactional style of doing the work, or, you know, it's just landing interviews and things like that, which that's all part of it. But I just wanted something that was more personal, more intimate of a setting for doing the work, especially because I didn't know how to do the work really. So there was going to have to be this deep level of connection because I was learning. As you're running.

11:15
Daniel Nestle
As you're running your company.

11:16
Barrie Cohen
Yeah, yeah, I'm like learning how to do pr. And so I think there needed to be this level of intimacy with my clients so that they could really get me when they needed me. But it also helped me develop the business and see what I really wanted. And so started the business in Philly and then a year later moved to Colorado the first time that was at a time when Zoom wasn't popular. So I lost all my business, had to rebuild in a market in place where I knew nobody. And it was done very differently. And then the pandemic hit, which was actually a blessing for me because I had started my career in healthcare pr. And so that was the industry that I just started my business in and so unknowingly made very smart decisions.

12:05
Barrie Cohen
And the business took off then because we had already done work in that space, and then moved from Colorado to Charleston for a year and then moved back. So bumped around, but I've kind of grown that the business, as you know, we've gone and then took it from a one woman show to now there's four of us, all women clients organically sort of happened, but still in that space of healthcare and now finance and nonprofit. So those are sort of the buckets we're in.

12:35
Daniel Nestle
That's so that's a good growth trajectory. It's interesting how, you know, there's this, and I see this a lot for creative people who start off on their own or go on their own business. And, you know, I might be looking in the Mirror. A little bit on this one, too, is you've got some knowledge. There's a lot. You're like, you know what? I'll just learn it as I go for some of it. How hard can it be to learn something about a company and then write about it? You know, so when you start off as a writer or something like this, and, you know, it's hard, but it's not the. It's not rocket science, you know, unless you happen to be writing about rocket science, which. Which has happened, certainly to me. But then you're. Then you start to realize, wait a second. Every.

13:24
Daniel Nestle
If I get some basics down about how to structure an engagement, like, what are they looking for? And I have a reasonable understanding of how to deliver what they're looking for, then it's a learning process, and it's just a matter of how fast can I learn this stuff? And then trusting in your skill and trusting in everything that you can deliver and that you learn over time, I suppose, with successes and failures in the way that we all do. But it's interesting. So you're focusing on. Are you said that it's. All of your clients are women, but that doesn't mean you're. You're excluding.

14:00
Barrie Cohen
No.

14:01
Daniel Nestle
Excluding anybody. Right. I just want to be clear about that. Anybody out there. Listen, you know, if you. If you want to work with Barry, you know, she's. She's following. She's not. She's not discriminating at all.

14:12
Barrie Cohen
No, I think it's organically happened, and I think some of that is a trend that we see in general, as you've probably seen with businesses who. When you're in the trenches, it's really hard to tell your own story. Right. We're not good at it either, but I can tell everybody else's story. And I think women entrepreneurs and founders, there's a kinship for us, and I think there's a relatability because I've been there. Like, a lot of them have been in different phases of their business or beyond, and I think we understand each other in a different way. And so it's just a natural fit. And it's been sort of this natural progression. But that doesn't mean we take clients from every walk of life. But I think going back to your other point, I knew I could learn this stuff.

14:58
Barrie Cohen
I think I had two very important skills. I could write, and I'm a great communicator, and I know how to talk to people, and I'm honest and transparent. And I think everything else, like you said, I'll figure it out how to do a press conference, I'll figure it out how to write this release, who to pitch to. I can figure all of that stuff out, but I think I've always been a person who is probably an over communicator and can talk to people and I'm reliable and transparent. And so I think it was those skills that I created the business on. Like, they're going to know every second what's going on. Yeah, right. Like, that's sometimes a challenge. You hire a big firm or a big agency and you get pawned off to a junior exec who maybe doesn't have the skills.

15:40
Barrie Cohen
But like six months down the line, you've never heard from anybody and you're paying lots of money and you're like, what's going on? How come we've made no traction? Like, I'm going to tell you, I sent this pitch and no one likes it, so I'm going to ditch it and do another one. And they're like, cool, thanks for letting me know. So I think it was like building it on these certain skill set that I already had. I could fill in the blanks in between.

16:00
Daniel Nestle
Yeah. And how long did it take you before you were. I guess solvent is the word I'm looking for. You know, like, because you started as. It's. It's hard when people ask, as a solopreneur, as a. As an independent consultant, when do you become profitable? I mean, because, you know, it's hard to think in terms of profitability when you have, essentially have no overhead except for your.

16:22
Barrie Cohen
Right.

16:22
Daniel Nestle
Your expenses. But yeah, when you say, all right.

16:25
Barrie Cohen
Because it's literally just been me forever, but I would really say, like, honestly covet like 2020, which again is like a shocking thing. But I think that was the first time where the business went from one. I think the amount of clients, but the work were doing. But then I also was looking at bringing on people. And so I think that was more to me of the shift. Less, I think, financially and monetarily, but like, okay, we're at a place where you're killing yourself. You can't do this all anymore, even though you think you're the only person that can do this, which is a thing I think a lot of us think. And I'm a control freak. And so I was like, there's no way I'm gonna bring on other people. And then it was like, I have to. I don't have a choice.

17:09
Barrie Cohen
Like, I can't do this work. And so I think for me, that was, like, the pivotal point of, like, you're successful. Like, you're at this place where, like, if you don't have help and don't relinquish some of that control, like, it's never going to go any farther. And I think I never had intentions of going that far anyway. So it was a really hard decision for me to make. And it's a pivotal moment I think about all the time, because I started this business as just something I thought I would do and I would have a few clients, and it took off in a way that I didn't expect, and so I didn't really have a plan. So then we got to this point of growth, and it was like, oh, well, you need people. Like, how do you do that?

17:47
Barrie Cohen
Like, I've managed other teams, but, like, how do I do that as a boss and leader and, like, am I effective? And I think that was, like, a pivotal moment of success. Like, oh, wow, you're. You're big enough to get to this point where you need help, and that's going to take it to this next level.

18:02
Daniel Nestle
Yeah, the whole idea of scaling and growing, you know, I've been in business for myself now for a year, and I have been happy kind of to be by myself doing things and, you know, starting to make things really happen. And it takes a while. It takes a while before. Before you start to get traction and. But then you start to get traction and, you know, like, wait a second. If I'm good at this, which I am, but if. If there's. If this goes the way that it should crap, I'm gonna have to, like, actually hire people. I'm gonna, like, have to make something work or I have to find partners or what, you know, you have to. You cannot sustain a grow. You can't sustain a business.

18:52
Daniel Nestle
I think today if you're just stuck with your, you know, your 8, 10, 12, 26 hours a day, that you're willing to work, you know, completely unscalable, unless that's what you want to do. Unless you want to be like an hourly freelancer or something, which, by which. Which kind of brings me a little bit back to one of the questions I had. So we started talking about you leaving the agency world or the small agencies, the traditional agencies, let's say, that you were working with and started your own thing and wanted to do things differently. You talked about transparency, talked about, you know, getting close to your clients, really understanding them better. I want to. I want us to think about the agency model itself, though, right?

19:43
Daniel Nestle
So the big agency model, and for, I think a lot of our listeners might not understand exactly what we're talking about when we say the agency model or traditional agency model. So, you know, you've got, whether a small agency or big agency doesn't matter. You have, you pitch a client, you get these engagements across a variety of different, you know, specialized areas. And then you structure your business as an hourly, on an hourly basis. And it's, you know, the business model is all based on consultant utilization and, you know, making sure that, keeping profit margins high by billing high, but sending in the cheapest labor.

20:28
Daniel Nestle
And I'm not trying to demean the account execs who are spending the majority of time on an account, but if you're paying your client that's paying $50,000 a month, or even $10,000 a month, whatever it is, you get into a pitch and the executive vice Presidents and the SVPs are in the pitch, and then the project starts, and then you realize that they're billing at 600 bucks an hour or whatever it is, and you realize that your $10,000 is going nowhere, right? So they say, oh, of course, were just, I'm here to just make sure things happen. But really the day to day are these people.

21:10
Daniel Nestle
And that's where you get the, either the old switcheroo or, you know, you realize that if you're as long as you're operating on an hourly basis, and that is how you do your business, this is going to happen every single time. So the agency model, you know, and how you acquire clients, the RFPs and the pitches, all that stuff is included. But fundamentally we're talking about a, an industry that is based on hourly rates and utilization. Like, you know, you have somebody who is billing out at 300 bucks an hour and they are utilized 60% of their time is, you know, what is the, what's the profit margin there? Like, how much do they have to be utilized before they, before you hit profit? And that is the model.

22:02
Daniel Nestle
So with everything that's going on in the world now, and this has been happening for some time, but I think it's accelerated now. How, how are you doing things different? How has that changed for you and how do you think it's changing?

22:18
Barrie Cohen
I mean, I think that's a great question because I think what happens often is because of this model, I think people think they can't afford priority, right? And so I think it really separates and divides people up and says, well like I'm a small business, I need help but I can't afford it. And so I think those were the conversations I was seeing early on that like the average person can't spend a 50k or even a 10k retainer right now. Right. And you shouldn't have to. You shouldn't have to. I think PR needs to be accessible to everybody. Telling your story is critical no matter the size of your business. And so it felt very natural for me being a small business owner to wanting to help individuals or small to medium sized businesses.

23:07
Barrie Cohen
And so I think because of that having a more affordable model like working on retainers and not hourly was something that I saw because one from a time tracking perspective and all those things, like it was just me, so I didn't need to have that. So it wasn't necessary. And I, I think it allowed that transparency up front. Like you are going to pay X amount a month and this is what you're gonna get. I'm not just gonna bill you hourly and you don't know what I'm working on. I think it sort of takes the guessing game out of it. And so that's how I structure and that's how the business is now. Structured it from the beginning, but then also coming in at a price point that was profitable for me but reasonable for other people.

23:53
Barrie Cohen
And other people would probably say that this is not great, but I'm also really flexible. Like I just want to help. And I know that you can't run a business on charity. I know that's not great. But in the beginning like I was still learning too. And even now if someone comes to me and like they have X amount of budget, like let's work with that. I want to help you. I can manage my team's time. So again we're still making money. But like let me help you because you're just doing such amazing work and you're doing things that are so amazing that people need to hear about. I just want to give you that opportunity and so we can be flexible.

24:27
Barrie Cohen
And so I think that also happens in a smaller agency is there's a lot more flexibility in the types of clients you can take on and the work you do for them and how you do it because you don't have a team of a hundred and you have to get these huge retainers in order to maintain an office space and all of these things that require a ton of overhead and a ton of money. So I think just doing it that way again without thinking I made these decisions with no plan and really no, like deep thought. It just in my gut it was like this is what needed to happen and I did it. And it's stayed that way for this time.

25:03
Barrie Cohen
And it works for us and I think it works for clients because I think then they really know the value they're getting. And I think more importantly, they get me despite me having contractors and other people that work for me because I have personal relationships. They get the boss. And you don't get that with those bigger, like you're going to get these junior execs which, who are highly skilled. I'm not saying anything about them, a lot of them are very skilled. But there's a touch point, right? Like you want to feel like your voice matters and that's what it's about. And so when you have the opportunity to work so closely, like I know them on a personal level, it's even beyond the PR work and the business work. But like I'm involved in all of these facets.

25:47
Barrie Cohen
So you know, you're paying for pr, but like you're going to get me all the time because I want to be there because I care deeply. So I think those are some of the things that really set you apart when you're, I think when clients are thinking about PR and I think those are things that you really should think about beyond your goals and what you want to get out of it. And all that is like, what do you want this relationship to look like? Because it's long term. Like I have a client who's been with us for five years, that's almost as long as I've had the business. And we have a really solid long standing relationship. Like we've walked this journey that's changed over the years together.

26:21
Barrie Cohen
So I think those are things you need to think about the type of person that you want to work with if you're going to go down that route of pr.

26:26
Daniel Nestle
Yeah. And there's, look, there's nothing wrong with being involved and deeply, like deeply hands on with your clients and whether you're running a business or not, I mean it's really about what you want to do and how you've set up your journey, your business, yourself and what you gauge to be success. A lot of these, a lot of businesses really, you know, they follow a very different tact and the folks who are hired to be the client interfaces are supposed to have that extra special skill where they get deep, you know, they create these Deep relationships. But in the end, are they. I mean, it's hard to tell sometimes. Some of them do. I mean, for sure, there are some amazing people I've worked with over the years as a client, also as a consultant.

27:18
Daniel Nestle
Still have great relationships with them based on the work that you do. And some I don't. But I think it's dealer's choice. It's up to you how you want to run your business and grow your business. But the key there is, I think, the structure of the deal in a lot of ways. How are you supporting them? What is the scope of work, so to speak. And, you know, when you start to get into retainers, which is, you know, and I should. I should clarify that traditional agency model does include retainers. Right. But the retainers are inevitably based on hourly rates. And when you are, you know, when you're not so concerned about hourly rates, you're just concerned with deliverables, you know, going over, going beyond. What's wrong with that. It just. It's all about what you can handle.

28:17
Barrie Cohen
I think nothing, I think anyone in finance would say that's not good from a, like, revenue standpoint. But I didn't start this business for that reason. Right. And so if I have to talk to somebody after hours or I have to do work on a weekend or, you know, a few more hours to get this done, I want to. No one's forcing me to. I think that's something that's really important again, because, like, I don't just say, like, I deeply care and I. I want to fight for our clients. And I think there is something, I think for boutique agencies, the fight is real. Like, we. Like, I will fight to get this pitch in the hands that it needs to be. Like, I will do everything it takes to get you in front of the person. You need to.

28:58
Barrie Cohen
Like, I will find the people. I will write the pitch. Like, I will go. I will be there with you in all these. Like, I think there's just this added extra level of care. Care that I think really set smaller agencies apart because we have the bandwidth to. We. We can. And I've structured my business that way because that's important. Like, if tomorrow we get on the Today show, like, I will be there. I will be there every second. I will handle everything. You will shine. Like, we will do all the things to get to that point. Like, so I think. I think there's just a level of. Of caring deeply that I built my business on because that's what felt really good for me.

29:40
Barrie Cohen
And So I want to go the extra mile and go above and beyond because that's what feels good to me. Like I, that feels good to me and my soul for doing the work.

29:53
Daniel Nestle
Yeah, it's hard to, it's hard for somebody who's so distant from the actual people you're helping or solving problems for to feel that way. Although they might. I mean, you know, I can't imagine the CEOs or founders of some of the, you know, top five agencies, you know, they didn't get there because they didn't care about their clients. Like so many of them, especially the ones that grew up in house and sort of rose. They care, but they're also, you know, very. They have a different approach to business and you know, they like for one thing, right, the bigger agencies and medium sized agencies are, they expand in many ways by expanding services and you know, smaller agencies can specialize and focus in more. So are you a, would you consider your like BCPR to be a very.

30:50
Daniel Nestle
Are you very focused in one particular area or do you do several different services across for your clients?

30:58
Barrie Cohen
So I, I would say the bread and butter is media relations. That is, you know, and that's everything from traditional to digital media. We handle all of that. And then specifically a big piece is actually podcasts. So we do a ton of pitching of podcasts for our clients where either they have their own podcast and E gas or we get them on as guests on podcasts. And that has been a incredibly lucrative and successful facet of the business that's fairly new in the last few years. And then we also do like thought leadership pieces and we'll help them with those things. Another part of the business is speaking engagement. So we have a lot of clients who are subject matter experts or authors. So we facilitate those speaking opportunities for them.

31:40
Barrie Cohen
And then any press that goes along with it, any sort of writing, we handle articles, press release, all of that, brand messaging if we need to. And then we also do partnership outreach. So we have a lot of clients who have businesses and so we facilitate partnership opportunities with other businesses or referral sources. And so we handle that. So those are sort of like the three or four big things that we do. And we've kind of dabbled in other markets like writing email newsletters and things like that, you know, there's this fun overlap of PR and marketing that we all talk about. So it's sort of natural that we help with those things. But that's really kind of the core of what we do. You.

32:19
Daniel Nestle
So you so you do have, you're, you're covering your clients in a broader way than simply just putting the pitch out. And I mean, I, I think that's an important distinction. Some people are publicists. They like, they just go out and they get publicity. Right. And that's what I think folks out there think that PR does that. That's what PR is. We're publicists. Publicist is one role within the PR and communications world and your agency. And you go far, certainly far beyond that. But in the areas that you're talking about. Right. I've been very vocal and I know we spoke about this when we first met, but I've been very vocal about how media relations itself is broken and almost, you know, I was gonna say hopelessly so. But I have to qualify that by saying traditional media relations.

33:21
Daniel Nestle
And the traditional perception of what media relations is, is out of place. It's just for the vast majority of companies, it doesn't work. And what we need to be looking at is earning the attention of audiences rather than catering to our clients to try to get them these unreachable goals. Now I'll turn this over to you in just a second, but the, you know that you mentioned that you, a large part of your like pitching your media relations is on is podcasts. And that's what I have particularly pointed out as an example of where the new type of media relations, the earned attention part of this, rather than thinking about top tier media, is supremely effective and probably a better way for us to spend time and a better way to spend your clients money.

34:21
Daniel Nestle
So tell me what you're seeing in the way that you're like, why you're choosing to go that route. Why are you choosing these channels and what is the advantage to your clients? What have they said to you about it?

34:36
Barrie Cohen
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a changing of public perception, right. Because I think all that clients know is traditional media. And so I deeply believe that it is our job to tell them no and that's not the right thing. And you know, as a public, like that's your job, like you have to. And so I think what were seeing is, you know, so many people are like, I want to be in Forbes, I want to be in the New York Times. Like you want to be in these big things, which are great. I am of the belief that trade publications and other places are more valuable. But were having these conversations and we just like weren't hitting right because of all the things shrinking newsrooms and all the stuff that we've dealt with right. With traditional media over the last few years.

35:19
Barrie Cohen
And I'm a huge fan of podcasts myself. And so it just sort of dawned on me one day. I was like, we've dabbled in it a little bit, but we really need to look in the digital space because we're just, we're coming up with roadblocks. We're not getting the stories that we want. We're sending so many pitches and none of them are landing. And I hate that for our clients. And it's stressing me out and we've got to figure out something else. And so we started looking into podcasts and one of our clients specifically, who's a financial advisor and specializes in high net worth, divorce, we started looking like, for her, she was probably the first one of like divorce podcasts.

35:53
Barrie Cohen
And it was amazing because were like, oh my God, there's so many her specifically, she can tell you the results that she's got. I mean, clients are calling her. I mean, clients, referral sources. I mean, we are seeing results that I have never seen from traditional media. It doesn't mean we don't do that because I think having a healthy mix is really good to be on all mediums and platforms. But we're really able to get in front of such specific target audiences that move the needle for our clients in their business in a way that I think is just amazing. Like, yes, Forbes is wonderful. You might get in front of a few hundred people, but like, what if we did a publication and you were like, I don't know, cater to the construction industry.

36:40
Barrie Cohen
And there's a handful of podcasts specifically for your niche that you're getting in front of those people who are actually going to like, call you for your services because they need it. And I believe the people who are listening to this podcast, like, unless you're in that industry, you're not listening to us. You're highly invested already. And so when were really able to look at that and get in front of these target audiences, it's incredible. I've really never seen anything like it. And our clients are like, oh my God. From direct clients to like referral sources, they're like, it's just that we're just getting in front of the people that they need in a way that is, it takes out some of the guesswork I think, with traditional media. But I, I just think that.

37:20
Barrie Cohen
And then from a content building perspective, it's like, it's gold. I mean, you don't even. You don't need to make posts. We're going to give you an hour, like, video that you can clip, 40 clips, a transcript, a blog, like, take photo, take all of it. So I think there's just so much added value that especially from an ROI perspective, which is also our hardest and fun conversation that we always have to have with our clients. Like, okay, so, like, what's the ROI from this? Like, I can say, well, let me tell you, like, there are tangible things we're going to get from this. Like, I can't guarantee anything, but I can tell you, like, we've got tangible deliverables from this. And so it's. I mean, the calls we get, everybody is like, I just want to do podcasts, like, more and more.

38:06
Barrie Cohen
That's all they want. And we have clients who. That's all we do. And, like, the results are incredible.

38:11
Daniel Nestle
When did you start doing the podcast? Because, you know, we started like a.

38:15
Barrie Cohen
Year and a half ago, like, it really was. Which, you know, kind of, I guess, late to the podcast game, but not for PR people, because there are not a lot of them who just solely do podcasts. Like, weave it into other, you know, media with some of our other clients, and then we have clients. Like, that is all we do is pitch podcasts for them. That's it. And so I started this particular service because of that, and that is the interest we get. 95% of the time is like, I don't need to be in an article. Just stick me in front of like five podcasts and I'm good. Like, great.

38:45
Daniel Nestle
How are you finding the competition? Let's say from the AI driven podcast pitching services, because those are crazy. And I'm, and look, I mean, I'm speaking about this. Yes. As both a recipient of all this junk mail. Oh, yes.

39:03
Barrie Cohen
Three times a day. I get these emails three times an.

39:06
Daniel Nestle
Hour sometimes for me. Right. Because. And you know what? It's. It's. I love it. I love it in one hand because it's a. It's kind of a metric for. For is my personal brand working? Is the trending communicator. Like, you know, is it. Is it getting. That's one way that I know. Because, you know, podcast measurement sucks in general. But if I'm getting more pitches, I'm like, okay, it's on. It's on lists. It's on more and more lists. But the, you know, it's just, I'm inundated. And, yeah, The. The shine wore off of that very quickly for me. How are you dealing with that? And do you see, like, what do you see the success rates are for what you're doing versus what? I mean, I probably don't even have to ask, but I want to ask. Yeah.

39:48
Barrie Cohen
You know, it doesn't. It's not a competition for me because they just don't have the capability. And I've looked at some of these services just because I'm cur. Right. I'm like, what are they offering? You know, they don't have the capability to get as personal. And so what I've seen a lot of them do is it's like, okay, we're gonna get you on 10 podcasts this month. But, like, they're kind of shooting in the dark. Like, they're probably not. Like, half of them, at least, are not great fits. So I think they don't have the understanding of the client. And yes, you can get all these podcasts. I mean, we use a database, we use a program where we get them from.

40:22
Barrie Cohen
But I can be very specific on, like, I need podcasts for dentists and, like, pull the exact ones as opposed to, like a podcast that's not even a fit. So I think, again, it's not really an issue. And again, because we have that personal level of service, like, people want to talk to a human. And even though there are people behind some of them, like, I just don't think it has, again, that. That level of professionalism that people want. And so because of that, our success rates are very high because we can just get in front of the right people. Yes. Are some not a fit? Sure, that happens all the time. But I can say if I need 15 podcasts about mergers and acquisitions, I can pull you the exact ones I need.

41:03
Barrie Cohen
That's the exact audience for my client with stats, with contact information, with descriptions, with demographics, with all the things that I need. And then I can determine that, okay, all those are great. I'm going to send those. And what is the success rate of someone respond? I mean, that's all. Listen, that's just up in the air. But at least we're taking out that portion of, like, is this even the right person that we're getting in front of? And so the success and just the amount of response we get is really high.

41:33
Daniel Nestle
It's a natural evolution in some ways for that sales function that PR people have to kind of do and go through, like, pitching pr, like traditional media relations is a. Is a. Is a sales game, you know, it's, you know, find that journalist, get on their radar, sell to them. Sell, sell. You're selling your client to a journalist, and, you know, the customer dynamic is quite different, but it's still a sales process in. When you're talking about podcasts, it's is, of course, fundamentally you're selling your customer, your client to the podcaster or to the. To the podcast network or whatever it is. And, you know, they're still a part of that, but they, you know, the sheer amount of podcasts out there, you know, increase your capabilities, I'm sure. And the fact that a lot of podcasters are just generally cool people is helps.

42:40
Daniel Nestle
You know, they're not, you know, they're just like. At least at this point, I think a lot of us. And, you know, I'll speak about the podcast community because I'm such an authority now, but like the podcast community, as it were, is like, just so thrilled to have people interested in what we're talking about.

42:55
Barrie Cohen
Yeah.

42:57
Daniel Nestle
So. So there's a. There's a more. There's a sort of human thing about it. It's like, we're not getting paid to write a story about X. Right. We're doing this because we want to, most of us.

43:06
Barrie Cohen
Right. It's your passion project. So I think, like, you want to have guests that fuel that for you. And so it's funny, just the response, even when someone's not interested, like, someone emailed me to. They're like, I respectfully decline. I'm like, that is so lovely. Thank you. That is like, thank you for being really nice about that. Right. And they're just not up against. And. And I love all journalists. Like, they're up against a ton right now. They are just inundated. And I get it. They don't have the time. They don't to respond or even send a long respond. Like, I get it. And so I appreciate that because it forces me to better at my job for them.

43:45
Daniel Nestle
Yeah.

43:46
Barrie Cohen
But I think with podcasts, like, again, yeah, you're building that connection. And so it's like, now I have this relationship with this host, and so I have another client who I think, like, there are some. I've had several clients. And I'm like, remember when you had this client? You love them. I got somebody else. I'm like, thanks, Barry. Like, I love working with you because, like, you make my job easier. And so I think you're really then building upon these relationships, which, again, feels so much of what I've done. And I'm doing that, it just feels so right. And I just, I love listening to them. I love the benefits it affords our clients. I just think there's so much that's so positive. And so, yeah, it just gives you an opportunity like no other.

44:24
Daniel Nestle
I really think it's, it again, it's emblematic of where earned attention is now. Like, instead I, I try to shift the conversation away from media relations to earning attention because we want to earn the attention of our audiences. When you think audience first, podcasts are very much kind of a fulfillment of that, you know, the audience, it's all about the audiences. And whether it's a podcast that has 500 listeners or 50,000 listeners or more than that, it's very drilled down, segmented, niched up, niche down, whatever term you want to use. But the other thing you said about it, I think is also critically important that from a practical, like, from a practical standpoint as to what is best for our clients and how can PR and communications deliver the most possible value?

45:32
Daniel Nestle
You do a pitch to any top tier media or even most traditional media, you're lucky, you get a mention. It's great. You can, you can take the link to the website and then, okay, maybe you make a PDF of it and you throw it in your files. Do a podcast now, you know, you even have, you have, well, you have a kind of suite of assets that's, that are available to you. You get a transcript, you get the notes, you get all the promotions that podcaster is doing on your behalf. You get clips sometimes, but then you have the video now. So, you know, then you get a video and it's in the hands of a resourceful kind of PRo or communicator. Those assets can go miles and miles and miles. And that's.

46:33
Daniel Nestle
I want to kind of talk about that for just a second because.

46:37
Barrie Cohen
That.

46:37
Daniel Nestle
I think is, it's an example of why you don't need a lot of people to be effective at what we do and to do a tremendous amount of work. Now I really kind of, I think broke open the door to how AI works for me, like to like, I really started to see the massive possibilities of it for myself when I was like, wait a second. I have, you know, I don't know at this point, 150. But let's say just from the trending communicator, 39 or so transcripts, right? Since I, since the Dan Nestle show started, it's like 150. But since I Rebranded. But anyway, each one of those podcasts, transcripts is, you know, 1512, 15,000 words, right? And I wrote about this in my substack recently there. That is just so much content and it's me talking and it's the guest talking.

47:40
Daniel Nestle
You know, it is ridiculous what you. So you can take, you take that and you play with it with AI and oh my goodness, what you can do. And we don't even know everything you can do. I just know I do a lot with it and I, I think every PRofessional should be doing at least as much for their clients. And if you're not, call me. But apart from that, it's like, it's just incredible. What's unlocked. So in your, for your powerful boutique agency, how have you unlocked that capability?

48:12
Barrie Cohen
Yeah, I mean, I think from even very simply, like, you know, I look at social media, right, And I've had a lot of clients who have a person or need a person or we've helped. Like, I am not a social media expert. It's not a thing I want to do. But you want to pay a lot of Money. Like take three podcasts, take this transcripts, they'll shoot you out 50 posts. Like I think from a, from that standpoint, like there's a lot of utilization from it or taking videos, I mean we fed videos to pull out transcripts and blog posts and all the things. And so I think we're just seeing a lot more capabilities too, like for the business itself, even separate of our clients, like we've been dabbling.

48:51
Barrie Cohen
And my assistant, who's young and super passionate about it, which I love, like she is totally into it, really looking at how I can utilize it for the business from a social media standpoint or like a thought leadership perspective and putting out articles and really like diving into LinkedIn with that stuff, which we're seeing and maybe gonna launch a new service for our clients. So we're sort of using it internally to like one see what's working for me so that we can offer other things, but that just. I'll be fully transparent. Like I was really resistant and I think a lot of people in this space are because we're worried it's going to take our jobs. I am not worried it's going to take my job. No one can do what I like.

49:32
Barrie Cohen
AI cannot be at the level with my clients that I am, but can they write me an outline for a three page article and then I can do the bulk of. Yes, like, can it cut down my time so that I can do other things in the business that are really important. And so I think, you know, we've really started to look at ways that I as a business owner can utilize it even beyond just our clients. And I, you know, I caution and say, listen, it's not perfect. There's a lot of flaws. I've used it personally for things that I'm like, that's not right. And from a writing perspective, like, do not let it write your pitches, do not let it write things for you, especially for people who are getting in the industry. Like you have to be really careful.

50:13
Barrie Cohen
But I think even just from a time saving perspective, it's really amazing how it can sort of expedite the things that we need to do and then we're seeing it in a whole nother respect. And all these conversations about, you know, where people have said PR is dying and all these things, but now how earned media is literally critical because AI is taking that just like Google News and logging it. And so that when people are searching through AI channels, they're finding you at the top of this list because of the back end of the earned media. So like there's all of these things that are happening now that we're sort of seeing this resurgence of PR having a need where I think people have thought like we don't need that anymore.

50:53
Barrie Cohen
But people are utilizing AI for even just a simple search perspective and they're seeing results because of the work of a PRofessional. So I think that's really interesting to talk about too.

51:07
Daniel Nestle
Yeah, it's a great example of people don't know what the hell they're talking about with most stuff. Like yes, we, we've, we see the new technology. It's just like I said at the beginning, you know, you see this new technology and you feel like, oh man, this is going to end me, it's going to end us. I need to fall in love with it now and then just figure it out. But in this case with AI especially, yeah, you do need to kind of with, not fall in love with it. You need to realize that it's not your captor, it's the other way around. If you, once you grasp what even a small percentage of the possibilities that you can do with, with generative AI, it changes the game in so many ways.

51:50
Daniel Nestle
And you're just, you know, you're talking about a few of those, the, that the interesting, like the Interesting thing about all of it is were told and were warned or were kind of, you know, the harbingers of doom came out and the crows were flying and delivering their messages that, you know, you better save up for the impending end of your profession and something changes. And boy, oh boy, now PR is somebody today in a separate community, I'm in a community of marketers said, man, it's like the golden age of PR now and I don't want to get ahead of ourselves. But you're right, earned media, especially credible media sources. And that doesn't always mean top tier, right? I mean, credible are trade journals, are, you know, some podcasts, like, these are all credible things.

52:54
Daniel Nestle
Credible media is absolutely a factor in the way that AI decides whether or not to serve up information. Now, that said, I don't, like I said, I don't want to get ahead of ourselves too much because we still don't have a full understanding of how it works. And there's a mad rush for people to say, oh, let's revive media pitching and just start pushing all the stuff out there. I think it's going to think it's certainly not doing any favors for beleaguered journalists out there, but it's also kind of misguided a little bit because it's not going to get you the instant results, right, that people are so used to. Search where you can put up a couple of websites that are really very well done with SEO and within a short amount of time you may appear in some searches.

53:49
Daniel Nestle
But AI doesn't work the same way. You need contextual relevance, you need a lot more. But it's definitely a very good thing for the long term. So podcasts, taking those transcripts and building out owned content from those transcripts, that is a winning formula, something you should do for sure.

54:09
Barrie Cohen
It's amazing. And I think it all goes to a bigger conversation of, I mean, this sounds so basic, but like, what is PR really? And like, what people need to know. Because like you said, I think it's been that battle, right, of like with marketing and things like social media, like, you put a post, you have instant gratification, right? And we're still in that age. Everybody wants a click of a button, you have AI spits out results in 30 seconds. But PR doesn't work that way. It's never worked that way and it's never going to work that way. And so I think there needs to still be, I see a lot of this level of understanding. Like it is the long game. You want to be in the long game with your business, with your brand. Like that is what PR is.

54:49
Barrie Cohen
And through that, right, I will develop and change and get better or whatever will happen.

54:53
Daniel Nestle
But like, but so will we.

54:55
Barrie Cohen
Yeah, and so will we. And we'll, and we'll adapt and evolve. But I think you have to think about it that way. And I still think there's still like a misconception of like, we make a phone call, you get on gma, you're famous tomorrow. Like, God, I wish I'd be out of a job. Like that would be so easy. Yes, that would be lovely. But like, it's still not that way even with a podcast. Like it takes time. And so I think there still needs to be this level of understanding, especially when we have this technology that like, if you're gonna do it's an investment and it is a necessary investment, whatever it looks like. But like, you have to understand that I think from the beginning and your.

55:36
Daniel Nestle
Strength that you spoke about earlier and is coming through very clearly is in the deep care and relationships that you have with your clients, getting to know them. You talk about creativity, customization and collaboration as almost your mantra in some ways. And when you're an impersonal kind of machine, AI can't do that. Not, not when you get to know somebody, not when you talk with them for an hour or two. Even on a podcast, there's only so far you can go. That is the difference really. That's going to continue to make the difference between the crap that's out there and bad pitches and mistargeting and not understanding to the things that get through and work.

56:28
Daniel Nestle
So the public or our prospective clients, our companies, our C suites, the people that we serve, they have to understand that if you take the human out of the process, then you will fail ultimately. And it's kind of like a self fulfilling. I don't know if this is the right thing to say, but it's kind of a self fulfilling prophecy that, you know, the more AI proliferates, the less human a lot of our content becomes and therefore you need more humans. It's counterintuitive because you need us to come in and say, doesn't pass a smell test. Yeah, it doesn't fit. You know that in the case of podcasters, it's like, who navigates that fit? Right. There's a, you look at a profile, you know, if you're AI or if you are, if you're AI or Somebody who knows nothing about me. You can.

57:39
Daniel Nestle
You have access to the same information. You have my. My profiles. You've got lists of things that I do and talk about. And then you just do some sort of matching. Oh, this mirror. This works. Okay, maybe some matches will happen.

57:53
Barrie Cohen
Sure.

57:53
Daniel Nestle
But if you know me, like, if Barry, you go out there and you're like, look, I've talked to this person for five minutes. They'll be great for your show, Dan. Yeah, I will know that is true. Right. I'll know it because you view it like, it'll save me shit ton of time. I won't have to read all kinds of stuff. Because you have the wisdom and the knowledge and the sort of frame.

58:17
Barrie Cohen
Right.

58:17
Daniel Nestle
That you need.

58:18
Barrie Cohen
But isn't that the. The same, like, time as money? And so when clients are, you know, looking at this and they're saying, okay, well, I can hire for the same price this AI, you know, company to pick these. Okay, sure. But, like, you're going to spend the same amount of money, but, like, how much of that is actually a waste? Because is it the right that, like, yeah, they might match up that they're using keywords in there, but that might not mean that podcast is actually the right fit or the. The blog or any of that. So I, I think that's what's also really important to think about. Because, like, there is a end point to the work that they can do. And again, I think the deep knowing of your client, like, they're not gonna know.

58:58
Barrie Cohen
Like, I, you know, I've had clients who are like, I don't want to be on certain podcasts that talk about X, Y and Z. Cool. Like, is that gonna know that? Probably not, right? Like, and so that's my job. My job is to know these things. And so I think it just. I think it gives a level of understanding that's just not there quite yet. And so I think that's also what bridges that human connection. That's all we want. We just, like, don't. We all just want to talk to each other? We're so, like, should, like, exhausted from being disconnected and not communicating. And now we get to. And so, like, I think we crave it. Like, I love this. I love that we get to spend time together and talk about PR and all the things.

59:39
Barrie Cohen
And, like, I want to give that to my clients. Like, I meetings this morning with all of them. Like, I get to do that. Like, all of these things that I think are just sort of bridging that gap. And so I Think having a person on your behalf and, like, who has your back to do this work, I don't know. I don't think that'll ever go away.

59:56
Daniel Nestle
I don't think so either. And you don't know what's going to happen. I mean, frankly, when you. You don't know what's going to happen when two people get together and talk. I mean, there's. There's a. There's a. A. Some people might call it spiritual, some people might call it metaphysical, but whatever it is, when you have, you know, two people talking to each other, whether it's on a podcast or whether you're pitching somebody or you're talking to a client, it is absolutely going to go in a direction where. No, I will go now. The AI Granted, I have played around with AI. I've written about this. I've had AI interview me. It's fun. It goes in places that I wouldn't predict it necessarily would go, but very, you know, very limited.

01:00:45
Daniel Nestle
And, like, it's not going to go where it's not going to connect some dots that, you know, that Barry Cohen will connect for me. Like, you know, there's not going to be an ope. Oh, by the way, that reminds me.

01:00:58
Barrie Cohen
Yeah.

01:00:59
Daniel Nestle
You know, remember were talking about xyz? So, I mean. Well, actually AI sometimes does that, which is freaky, but not in the same way. Like, not in the same way.

01:01:06
Barrie Cohen
Yeah.

01:01:08
Daniel Nestle
And it is. It is in those human moments and those human connections that we have a lot more to explore, I think, and a lot more reason to be optimistic. You know, there was another thing that we were talking about with. With your business with speaker, like public speaking, like getting speaker engagements. And, you know, I don't want to belabor the point too much, but, you know, that is also a very uniquely human experience when you have somebody talking in front of a room or. Or interacting on a panel, presenting findings, whatever they're doing, that is, at this point, irreplaceable. You don't know what's going to happen. Somebody gets up there on stage. The connections made on a emotional level and on a personal level, not going to happen without humans. So I think you're in a good place, man. I didn't.

01:02:14
Daniel Nestle
I didn't mean to take us that far.

01:02:17
Barrie Cohen
No, that's great. We're.

01:02:18
Daniel Nestle
We're so. I. Yeah, we've been talking for an hour and it goes by so fast.

01:02:23
Barrie Cohen
I know we could probably talk for three more, but I don't know if anybody would want to Listen to us talk.

01:02:30
Daniel Nestle
So, but before we go, Barry, like, there are this world of. Of PR that we're in, and, you know, boutique agencies, big agencies, et cetera. You know, when you think about all that, where is this going in the future? Like, what is.

01:02:46
Barrie Cohen
Maybe.

01:02:47
Daniel Nestle
Let's just narrow it down to what. What's keeping you up at night, either in a good way or a bad way. About. About the. The future of your agency and the future of pr.

01:03:00
Barrie Cohen
I think probably the. The hardest thing and the thing I think about is, like, how do we stay on top of all the information and news that we're inundated with? I think in the past, right, like, there'd be a breaking news story, and we'd have a little bit of time, not a ton. But to get ahead of it now, it feels impossible in a lot of ways. And so I think that's the thing that I constantly think about is, like, how are we staying on top of what's going on in all of these industries and all of these things that affect our clients without being overwhelmed? But also, like, you know, I understand people are exhausted by the news, but can you imagine being in an industry where, like, that's all you have to do? Look at the news all day long?

01:03:40
Barrie Cohen
I'm like, oh, my God, my brain feels like mush. And so I think that's probably the hardest thing that we're faced with is, like, how do we stay on top of it? And I don't know if I have a good answer. You know, I like certain news sources and places that I get my information. I think social media is a scary place for that right now. So I think we're up against a lot of that. So I think that's the biggest challenge. And the thing that I think about often is, like, how do we do that? But then in the same token, like, not to belabor the point, but then I think about podcasts, and I'm like, well, we don't have to, right? Like, we can give ourselves a break from that, because we're not bound like.

01:04:13
Barrie Cohen
Like traditional media, where we have to follow editorial calendars and things like that. We can just have good people talking about important things and, like, getting the word out. And so I think that's what makes me excited, is that, like, while we're up against a lot, we also have a lot of opportunity to sort of cut the noise, too. And so I think those two things are, like, the things I think about kind of hand in hand, back and forth, is like, how do we stay on top of things. But also how do we give ourselves the space to also, like, be in rooms where we probably haven't been and talk about things where we might not be able to in other mediums? And so I would say those are the two things. And yeah. That I think about the most often.

01:04:53
Barrie Cohen
And just, I don't know, I just think podcasts are, I mean, listen, I'm very. So stereotypical. I liked your crime podcast. Like, I listen to a lot of that stuff often every day, but also like on a whole nother different arena and categories. But I just think there's something really special about it. And I, I foresee that continuing especially as we look at podcasts on YouTube and other streaming platforms. Like, it's, I don't think it's going anywhere. I think that's going to continue to grow. And so I'm excited to be a part of that.

01:05:23
Daniel Nestle
Yeah, me too. And I, I do agree with you 100 that is a very key place to be. Not for many reasons, but not the least of which is that, hey, I am doing a podcast and I'm here. I'm here And I'm on YouTube. I'm everywhere.

01:05:36
Barrie Cohen
Yeah.

01:05:37
Daniel Nestle
So, you know, and, and I think also that keeping on, you know, being on top of things is impossible. So we have to first say that it's not going to happen.

01:05:47
Barrie Cohen
But no, it's impossible.

01:05:48
Daniel Nestle
That's why I'm, that's one of the reasons why I am embracing some aspects of like AI agents, like building out some AI agents that are just going to pull information for me and just have it ready for, you know, for different stuff that isn't mission critical necessarily. It's not, it's not like life or death things. It's more like. It's more like, okay, I need to be on top of this a little bit. Let me just kind of get something going with an. That's one small and easy use of AI that I'm doing. But, but look, there's a just. Gosh, there's so much there, so much more we can talk about. Barry Cohen of Denver, Colorado, formerly of Philadelphia. It's been a pleasure. This has been amazing to have you on the show.

01:06:38
Daniel Nestle
Everybody out there, look, if you want to get in touch with Barry, and I don't think anybody needs to convince you anymore that, you know, you want that personal kind of somebody who is going to care deeply about you as a client and you as a peer or you as a somebody to as a mentee, maybe even, you know, reach out to Barry. She's on LinkedIn, of course, and her name will be spelled properly in the episode title. You'll see it. It's B A R R I E and Cohen or bcpublic relations.com Barry Cohen, public relations, BC public relations.com and is that all, Barry? I didn't miss anything, right? That's. Those are your main places.

01:07:19
Barrie Cohen
Yeah. And I mean, people can also email me directly. Just barry cohen.com also very open yourself up.

01:07:27
Daniel Nestle
Great. I know this is, it's going in the transcript. You're going to open up, open yourself up to some bots. But hey, that's on you.

01:07:34
Barrie Cohen
Listen, bots, bring it on.

01:07:35
Daniel Nestle
Bring on the bots.

01:07:36
Barrie Cohen
You know, come on. No, I'm always happy to chat so anyone can reach out to me directly. That's perfectly fine.

01:07:43
Daniel Nestle
This is terrific. So, Barry, we're gonna look for you on LinkedIn and BC Public Relations. We'll talk again soon, I am sure. And you know podcasts, what can I say? I think I agree with you. That is, that is the. A great way to earn attention. So thank you very much.

01:08:00
Barrie Cohen
Thank you so much.

01:08:07
Daniel Nestle
Thanks for taking the time to listen in on today's conversation. If you enjoyed it, please be sure to subscribe through the podcast player of your choice. Share with your friends and colleagues and leave me a review. Five stars would be preferred. It's your call. Have ideas for future guests Want to be on the show? Let me know@dantrendingcommunicator.com thanks again for listening. The trending Communicator.