AI Transformation, or AI Theater? - with Anne Green

00:00
Daniel Nestle
Welcome or welcome back to the trending Communicator. I'm your host, Dan Nestle. There was a time not too long ago when the corporate types I talked to about AI would tell me, we're all about AI transformation. We're making progress. Everybody has access and we're getting them trained. Which in retrospect meant we know we need to get on board, but we don't really know why. So we've created a restrictive policy. We've given employees low risk, low capability, high limitation tools, and an hour of DIY video training. So AI, this transformational technology is just like any other productivity software then. I mean, I got more training on Google sheets than some of these folks get for AI tools. If there weren't so many consequences, I'd say this is one hell of a joke. But CEOs are making headcount decisions based on expected AI productivity gains.

01:03
Daniel Nestle
A significant number of employees are stuck with Copilot, while their counterparts and career competitors in other companies and upstarts like me are experimenting and innovating with a wide variety of tools. Maybe not today, but sometime soon. Lunches will be eaten and Pipers will be paid. But hey, AI transformation. We love our transformational theater, don't we? Well, maybe there is a change, a coming because the questions have changed. I'm hearing more people calling for an appraisal. A step back, a look at the why and the how of AI before pushing deeper into the what. Agencies, PR and marketing firms mostly. They seem to get it smart. Agency CEOs aren't implementing AI. They're reimagining what agencies actually do. They're questioning whether they need the same talent pipeline, the same structure, even the same business model. These aren't technology questions. They're existential ones.

01:55
Daniel Nestle
They are change management questions. Well, today's guest has been living these questions while orchestrating one of the industry's most successful transformation stories. She took the helm at GNS Integrated Business communications, inherited a $28 million agency and expanded it to 33 million, acquiring Morgan Myers and forming the GNS Integrated Marketing Communications Group, all during our industry's AI identity crisis. And here's what makes her perspective unique. She spent 22 years building Cooper Katz from startup to acquisition, then navigated that integration from the inside. Now she's the one doing the acquiring. That's a masterclass in organizational evolution. She started at Burson Marsteller when Howard Burson still rode the elevator. She's a scholar practitioner with an MA in Literature from nyu. She originally wanted to be a Professor.

02:41
Daniel Nestle
She's a PR Week Global Power book regular, a Vassar College trustee, an active media trainer who still works directly with clients. But those are just credentials. What matters is her ability to see what AI really means for human value in communications. And just a few weeks ago, she turned the tables, interviewed me on her great podcast, Building Brand Gravity, where we explored the attention economy and why earned attention is so critical for visibility. Well, today we're going to dig into something a little bit different. We're going to dig into what's really happening with AI adoption behind corporate doors, why geo Generative engine optimization might be eating SEO's lunch, and what this means for PR's talent pipeline.

03:20
Daniel Nestle
Making her return, her triumphant return to the trending communicator, the CEO of GNS Integrated Marketing Communications Group, host of Building Brand Gravity, and my friend, the brilliant Anne Green. Ann, how are you? What's going on?

03:34
Anne Green
Oh, my goodness, what an intro. Dan, I told you. Thank you. I'm a friend of the pod. I'm glad to see you are.

03:40
Daniel Nestle
You know, you join a. You join a few illustrious colleagues. Ethan's been on twice. Ethan McCarty.

03:46
Anne Green
Oh, I love Ethan.

03:47
Daniel Nestle
You know, I've had Ethan on a couple times, had Ken Jacobs on a few. I've had a few. A few folks are our returnees. Megan De Shula, Noel, those kinds of folks, they're, you know, and it's good to have that. I think I'd say, I would say community. I feel like it's a little performative when you say community these days, but it is kind of a community. It's a community, a small community of the people that I really love to talk to and that my audiences love to hear from. So I'm glad you're back. Part of that community and always a friend of me and the pod. So welcome.

04:23
Anne Green
And the community thing is real. It's interesting. We are in a space where there are some who are on the client side or in house, there are some agency side, there's competition, people move between entities. Agencies are competitive. But I have to say, after 30h, 34 years, now on the agency side, I find this sector really generous. I love the people I know who I've watched grow for many years. And all the names you mentioned, friends of the pod, are people I know and respect and have known in different ways. And so I'm really glad for that community right now, Dan, because it is a huge change happening and there's so much going on. It's not just the business models of this sector, but it's all the different client sectors. It's the economy, it's the geopolitical thing, it's really the world.

05:12
Daniel Nestle
Yeah.

05:13
Anne Green
I mean, it's such a macro human change. It's one of those seismic times. It's not an easy time, to say the least. So to be able to have conversations like this, sort of reach out to others within different. You know, the Venn diagram of our comms community is really meaningful to me right now.

05:29
Daniel Nestle
Yeah, it really is. I think a life course in. Don't build, don't burn any bridges, you know, Although sometimes I do feel like a bridge burner here and there and. But that seems to be in my head because then when I then reach out and talk to that person, sometimes months, sometimes years later, there's no issue. There's no issue at all. People know like it's. It is you make, you. You make a principled stand about something or you have a pov. It's not thought leadership unless somebody can disagree. And I think that was Andy Crestedino who said that recently to me. But, but you know, you have to, you have to kind of be firm in where you stand on.

06:11
Daniel Nestle
And I'm not on societal issues for sure, but I'm talking about PR and comms about like what you think the direction is, what you think we should be doing and, you know, where we're at. And you know, I've always liked reconnecting with you because, you know, you have such insights to share and not to raise the bar even more on you for this show because the bar is always high when you come on. But no, I'm really interested to hear what you're thinking about where we're at right now because as I said in the monologue, because I can't call it intro. That was more of a monologue. There's a lot of difficulty right now in corporate America, maybe Corp. Global Corp. Corporations about what the heck they're supposed to be doing with AI. And in some cases I've seen like it kind of.

06:57
Daniel Nestle
It's turned on itself. Not AI has not turned on itself, but teams and executives have sort of turned the corner on. Okay, this has been a flash in the pan or like there was a lot of hype and we need to slow it down. And I don't think it's going to give me what it's supposed to give us. And the promises were way over promised. Maybe there's some of that, but there's also a genuine technological revolution happening Here with AI that I don't care how many people think was hype, it's real, it's changing everything. And it's just a matter of I think how you figure out how it works into your work, how it works into your operations.

07:44
Daniel Nestle
You know, rather than jump forward and say okay, let's get everybody AI first you need to understand where you're at and what use cases you need to kind of improve. And then you have to kind of envision once you have this thing, you know, you don't know what's going to happen when you have, when you give everybody a little innovation engine and a PhD in their pocket. But once you have this thing, how much do your kind of guardrails become more like bouncy walls or like permeable where people can kind of go outside the lines a little bit. And how much do you think your business is going to change? Because it is going to change. So you have to be prepared for that. Very different scenario than we ever have been in before, I think.

08:27
Anne Green
Yeah, I was trying to collect my thoughts on where are we right now as I prepared to have this conversation because I think the best way I can say it is so many things are true at one time. Right. So let me give you my not hot take but my 2 cents on this question of a bubble or hype. Yeah, so and there are times when history is instructive and there's times when history is not instructive. But if I go back to the dot com era, which I'm not saying there's a direct comparison. Right. For the many listeners you have who live through that though. And I've talked with people like Mark McLennan and others who've been in the industry a long time in the tech space. We used to compete friendly competition with Cooper, Katz and Schwartz.

09:10
Anne Green
Now he's at C C and we do the ethics work together in the PR council. But when I talk to folks like that, the thing that's instructive to me is I remembered clearly during the dot com era massive change was happening. And this was right before the writing to Web, the TypePad, WordPress revolution and social media. So that two way comms. But the dot com era was ushering a massive change including relative to search. It's not just the E comm side, it's the search. But there was also a bubble obviously.

09:41
Anne Green
And where it's been helpful and instructive for me to really go back in time and ask myself what was happening back then and then bring it forward is I think where there's overhype and bubble is where you see very small companies or startups that are doing more discrete applications of AI and by the way, amazing innovations coming out of that. I'm not saying a single app or use tool is not, but where their evaluations are just utter insanity. I mean, I remember before Burn Rate came out with, you know, the, when that book came out or the first article in Cranes and others that were talking about the burn rate of the dot coms being like, this is upside down land, like up is down cats or dogs. What the hell is going on here?

10:23
Anne Green
So where I feel bubbly right now is where you have these small kind of point solutions and the massive proliferation of them and the massive, you know, and huge valuations, that feels like it's going to crash. I think that the more seismic change is obvious and I guess just to not do too much of my own monologue or soliloquy, I think my big take at this moment is so much is true at one time. In some ways, the tools are transforming things in big and small ways, all over the place. In some ways, adoption is really fast and interesting and nimble and surprising to me in ways I'm not expecting. In some ways a lot of companies are really advancing it and then at the same time, there's a lot of it that's quite inert, not that useful.

11:21
Anne Green
There's a lot of everything you said which is sort of stalling out, not really understanding how to use the tools are too restrictive and there's a lot of being promised that isn't being delivered. And to me, and I've talked to you about this before, to me, the biggest thing is from the upskilling side, this is a very complex people transformation moment. And we are really crap in this society at upskilling people. We're not good at it. And so to me, the beginning and end has continued to be. It's a theme. How do we each interrupt our own workflows in a positive way, figure out what those killer apps are meaning? Like that's the mobile language from back in the day.

12:04
Anne Green
But what are the things where that light you up and cause change and then how do we figure out how to scale that throughout, whether it's top down, bottom up, peer to peer, various channels and show the work, share with each other, share with us, share with our clients, share inside and outside. But I would say, you know, Dan, it's all over the place right now. That's all I can say.

12:26
Daniel Nestle
Accurate I'd say it's accurate. There's a interesting post I read like almost just before we got on this recording today, my friend David Armano posted something. There's a share and it was something about how employees are, you know, who are adopting AI and or, and I don't recall what industry, or it was across industries, I'm not sure, but that there is a proliferation of work slop. Right? We've been talking about AI slop or like just crappy AI content. And that's just, I mean, it's with us. We will get past it or we won't. I think it presents a tremendous opportunity for people who write well and can put out excellent content. You know, let the slop continue. I don't care, but I mean, I care, but I don't care that much.

13:17
Daniel Nestle
You know, I have to have confidence in what I think is good stuff. But I didn't think about it in terms of the workplace and how like a lot of workers seem to be just now embracing AI on like on the kind of front side and maybe their executive teams and their ops. People are saying, see, we're embracing AI, it's in there. But the quality of their work has been going down and they're losing the respect of their colleagues because their colleagues want to have quality work to work with. And it's like the equivalent of having that person on the team who just basically phones it in every day and you got to carry them. They find themselves either correcting people's work too much, looking at stuff that's just obviously low quality and it's churn and burn.

14:07
Daniel Nestle
Like these AI users just can create whatever they want to. And everybody knows this. You can just go to ChatGPT, create whatever you want, really, if it's written. And it got me thinking that we've been talking about AI as a enhancer and an augmenter. It augments your skills, enhance your skills. But I forget who the comedian was or the movie. There was a. It stopped. It just jumped out in my head. Somebody was talking about weed, how it intensifies your personality. Man, I forget who it was. I forget what it was. Somebody out there will tell me. But like that's the, you know, there's comparing weed and alcohol. But point is, weed intensifies your personality. That's what AI is doing. It's intensifying the best and the worst parts of your work style and the way that you and your competency.

15:01
Daniel Nestle
So you have people who are not so Great. Well, guess what? AI is going to make them even worse. Even, you know, even not so greater. And, you know, there could be a turnaround. You never know. But I, I wonder if it's going to result in a long term, a longer term kind of really separating the capable from the incapable, the weed from the chat.

15:22
Anne Green
Yeah, so many good questions in there. And it goes back to that article the Atlantic had back in the days of search dominance. Is Google Making Us Stupid? Remember that headline? Boy, that was good. It was really about the interplay between the human brain and technology. And by the way, we know the human brain is plastic in the 1800s. You know, I'll bring out my literature brain because my specialty was Edgar Allan Poe. He could read and write just huge amounts, just this sustained attention beyond anything. And his retention at that time, he being, you know, one of any kind of person that considered them well educated, the kind of retention of information one needed to have because the way that knowledge was passed and retained. Right. So this is remapping us.

16:07
Anne Green
So that's one piece, which is how do we not fall into the trap of television is making a stupid search is making us stupid. Social media is making us stupid. No one's going to right now because Twitter is 140 characters. Okay, so the language changes, the brain changes, the workflow changes. But what you're saying, I think is really profound because it's not a given that AI augments us in a positive way. It's not a given that AI just makes it better. AI is its own thing. It's also an invention of humans. It's a very curious thing in the way that we talk about it and think about has a magic to it in a way because of how it operates. That's a little bit beyond.

16:47
Anne Green
I mean, we understand it, but even the smartest people who are engineering it there, you know, I was just listening to Trevor Noah interview Mustafa Suleiman, the new, you know, season of Trevor Noah's podcast. And he's a super brain. I mean, he's brilliant. And so it was a fantastic, both practical and philosophical just came out like a week ago. I really encouraged people to listen to it because it's talking about all the aspects of this, but there's magic to it still. And I think what you're getting to, Dan, is that it takes a lot of intentionality and a lot of iteration and a lot of discussion and exploration and discovery and really. And that's why I think in some ways your assertion that maybe agencies are doing a little bit better here. We are by nature a more communal environment.

17:38
Anne Green
We're a multi generational workforce and we see ourselves as a cohort. We're all in different client service teams and expertise, but we understand our mission to serve clients and we understand the imperative. We have to figure out what is this good for, what is it not? And also what is each person good at and what are they not and where are their skills? So there's a natural conversation happening there. And I think for me, when I tease through some of this, I see this idea of interrupting a workflow. I see where it's hard and where it's easier. I see what seems like, wow, now that is something I want to dig into versus I can't make it give value to me here. I watched how my partners are using it.

18:18
Anne Green
Steve Halsey, our chief growth officer, he is in a constant dialogue with ChatGPT and as someone doing proposals and also branding and consulting, I can see how it's supercharging a lot of that thinking. I personally feel that generative AI, one of the least interesting things it does is write, because that's where like, for example, the writing I don't want to fool myself that humans are so freaking special. But the inertness of that writing today, maybe if I train it forever, it could write in my voice more. But it's been very interesting to kind of see this proof of your assertion, which is AI doesn't automatically augment our intelligence. We have to fight for it and we have to build it and we have to embrace it. But it is a journey.

19:04
Daniel Nestle
Oh, 100%. And I agree that the least interesting thing it does is right. But it's so funny that's everybody. That's what the biggest kind of use is for. For. Because it's the easiest use. Probably you just, you know, it's the.

19:20
Anne Green
Big trick in a way where it's like, oh my God, it suddenly wrote something like a Shakespearean sonnet. And I don't want to downplay the power of that because, you know, you and I live in a world where we are writing and communicating all the time. That is a very hard skill set for many people as communications professionals, as also trainers, as like a speech coach, I know how difficult that can be. And writing is not, you know, the first skill set that some people have. In other. I think what's been interesting though, is to watch teams experiment in different ways. Like we have some folks. Like, we have people I consider builders of AI now within the Agency. And we just brought one of our, you know, younger digital team members at Morgan Myers into it.

19:59
Anne Green
Half, 50% AI role because it's so much the air he breathes. He's a natural teacher, a sharer, he's self training. So he's building a lot of very quick, not just prompts or small pieces of agentic AI that are purpose built and doing it very fast with others making it, which is a great experimentation lab using ChatGPT as well as Copilot, pushing their boundaries. But then we have another team that's built a deeper brand voice agent for a client. And what they've done is seven or eight rounds of deep iteration and testing across 40 or 50 different types of writing, bylines, pitches, speeches, Q&As, briefings. And they keep testing and iterating. And now they've gotten to the point where like they basically said, damn, this thing is amazing.

20:49
Anne Green
And now they want to talk to the client about it, to say, we want to talk about what's a different way for us to work together on content because we've worked really hard to get this to a place in an enterprise setting. So I bring that up because that's where I see rubber hitting the road. Yeah, that and Geo, but I see that's where I see rubber hitting the road in finding out where should we go fast and where should we go slow in test. Do you know what I mean? Does that make sense?

21:15
Daniel Nestle
It does. I mean, partly because you're describing my work as. Well, you know, I, I've gone, you know, I've gone deeper than any human should probably go into. Let's make this thing 1% better, 1% better. You know, getting that voice writing is such a, you know, such a personal thing. But corporate writing doesn't have to be. And thought leadership really needs to be solidly in somebody's voice and your pov and it has to really express your ideas. You can't go around, ethically speaking, you shouldn't go around misrepresenting yourself in any way. But it, you know, that's exactly what you need to do. I think with whatever tools you're using, whatever AI you're using, you know, it's that constant refining, iteration, moving closer, putting in these do's and don'ts, making sure you know what.

22:08
Daniel Nestle
It's kind of like if somebody told me years ago that you're in marketing and pr, someday, Daniel, you will need to understand formal logic and coding to a point like you don't have to learn the language, the coding language, but you have to kind of learn some of the principles. And I would knock it off. There's no way, like, I'm a word guy. Well, AI has not only transformed me or added that kind of those aspects to my kind of portfolio, I suppose, but it makes it fun for me to do it. And challenging. And, you know, I approach every. Every piece of writing, you know, like this huge challenge to get it closer to what the real thing is.

23:01
Daniel Nestle
And all along, what I'm doing is actually making it the real thing, because I'm injecting ideas and directing it with the 25 years of wisdom and knowledge, if you want to call it that I have, from executive comms and from corporate comms. Like. Like, you know, you can't. You can't discount that part. But you put it all together, and before you know it, you have like, okay, here's my content engine. Yeah. It's got four frameworks, three protocols. It has these instructions. You have to go this, do this and this. You prime the pump, and this is what you like. There's a whole thing. It's not. Go to ChatGPT and ask it to write like you. There's a whole infrastructure almost, that you have to build in order to really do it right. But once it's done, then the creation possibilities are almost infinite.

23:54
Daniel Nestle
I hate to say infinite, but they're endless. Yeah.

23:56
Anne Green
That's the plasticity of our brains again. And of. So what's interesting here is you're kind of saying, are the humans making the machine more human? Is the machine making the humans more machine? There's going to be a symbiosis here, maybe until we reach the singularity. I don't know. But what you're reminding me of is remember when Facebook first kind of opened the gates to let us oldsters into it? And I was in my 20s at the time, but remember the early days of Facebook, the way semantically that you would put an update in, it was like, name is doing something. Ann is on Dan's podcast. Ann is podcasting. Ann is doing this. I would catch myself at that time. It's not like I use Facebook all the time. I would catch myself thinking that way.

24:40
Anne Green
Like, my inner monologue is, Ann is walking down the street. And when I realized that I was a. Holy shit. But now you're learning parameters and putting it into language. How do I interact with this thing that's ones and zeros, but has been ingesting and coding in a certain way that it can do this, you know, magic prediction box? Yeah, so it changes the way you speak and think and how. And so that's changing you. And so, yes, I think this question. There's a lot of people struggle with authenticity, especially in the writing side and the act of creation.

25:15
Anne Green
I would say that probably on the agency side, when we're very focused on words, journalism, creation, creative people, our digital colleagues, et cetera, are probably more hesitant in the beginning about AI because of some of those questions around, well, what is the authentic voice? Now there's some that are like, woohoo, I get to just do this. But I think overall it's actually really instructive. And I'm thinking about this live time as we meet to think about we're changing each other. I say that loosely because it's not a creature. I'm trying not to anthropomorphize it, which I'm failing at already. But it's changing us too. And that does give us more creativity, perhaps.

25:56
Daniel Nestle
Yeah, I think there's a lot of. There's a future that we don't know. But I do know that if somebody said to me, you know, AI just is going to make you a worse writer. It's going to make you kind of, you know, you're going to just forget how to use your original voice. You know, I would just invite them to sit with me as I sweat over an article, regardless of whether I get AI assistance or not. Because I always call it AI assistance because AI is not writing it for me. You know, it's. It may draft some of it, you know, but I have it. The, the foundational work that I put in to create the engine, so to speak, is so rich with my IP and my understanding, my knowledge. So, yeah, it's being done by some kind of technological contrivance.

26:53
Daniel Nestle
But since when in the universe of our lifetime have we had like, you know, one push access or just one click access to your entire body of work all at once? Never. You've never been able to do that before. You've never been able to say, this thing has everything I've ever produced or everything of import that I've ever produced, and it will pull up the ideas that I would be searching forever. But they're my ideas, they're my things. So I kind of wanted to drill a little bit more into this a little bit because I think this is one of the. It connects to why organizations are failing with, I think, with.

27:39
Daniel Nestle
With this transformation because they don't allow the room for the builders like you say, they don't allow the room for the innovators to dig deeper and then you know, suddenly come up with this either solution or a use case or something that is new, a new way of approaching things. Like you and I both know that what your team is doing, what I'm doing it, I mean executive communications will never be the same assuming that they wisely choose to work with us. Right. But there's so many, there's so many implications to this. This is one thing of, of a million trillion different things that can happen on a day to day basis in business and you're not giving people the room to run.

28:29
Daniel Nestle
So the transformation that we seek, you said it earlier that this is, you know, this is a complex people transformation and we fall flat on this. And you know, A, I couldn't agree more but B, I mean what are companies going to do about this? Because there's, it's interesting, there's this kind of loop or this pattern, I don't know, maybe just dawning on me for when AI first start, first came out, let's say November of 22. I think within days you're seeing people go up, PR agencies fucked, gone. They're not going to be able to do, they're going to be replaced or ad agencies, whatever.

29:17
Daniel Nestle
I think the pr, comms, communications and let's just say integrated marketing communications because it should be all one lumpy thing anyway is probably in a better position to seize the opportunity with AI but doesn't fit into the same box that traditional job descriptions might or that organizations might have room for. So they're going to increasingly go to agencies to help them with this stuff because they can't do it in house yet, which bodes well for agencies. So it's like the agencies are, oh, new technology agencies are done. Oh wait a second. Agencies kind of get it more than we do. We need to work with the agencies. You know, so it's kind of this.

30:01
Anne Green
Thing, we've heard this story before, right? Yeah, it's tough.

30:05
Daniel Nestle
But then why are they failing? Why you know, is beyond that. They're not let just if we're going to call it one thing, they're not empowering people or people don't have the freedom. What else is it that's really stopping this whole thing?

30:19
Anne Green
I'm trying to interrogate myself of how much do I think that assertion is true? I think it's very true in many ways and I think obviously there's outliers, there's Plenty of organizations that are probably kicking butt and doing really creative stuff and seeing some change. But as I talk to some clients in various sectors and some very large entities, I think there's a few dynamics happening at once and I have a lot of compassion and heart for it out there. So there's a lot that must be done to your point to iterate and explore and create time for experimentation and also self training and learning. Many groups, client, agency, whoever in house, they're working hard to try to create trainings, they are trying to create enterprise tools, they're trying to create more freedom to operate.

31:10
Anne Green
I really do think that's happening on the legal side, regulatory, they're really trying. But the fact is right now in our society, for many reasons that everyone listening will know, I observe that most people are doing more work than ever before in white collar jobs. And that's true in blue collar and other types of jobs too. It's just tight. And this whole thing, I mean Bill Gates, Mustafa Suleiman and Trevor were talking to evoke that again how Gates was saying years ago at the advent of Microsoft, oh, we're going to go down to just working a few hours a day. Obviously Tim Ferriss had the four hour workweek.

31:49
Anne Green
I mean this has been on and on and you hear a lot of that with the AI utopianism, but the lived reality is people are so overwhelmed and now as more cuts are made, because it really is a layoff rich environment which is hard and with the tariffs and the geopolitical situation, it's just a wild tough time, People are pressed. So then we're trying to, and this is the thing I've been talking to my own folks about and talking to other leaders about. We have this very much a conundrum as leaders in whatever place we're sitting in. We have workforces. You know, I have people working for me who are amazing, all kinds of different people. I want them to get excited about what AI can do. I want them to be clear eyed about it.

32:34
Anne Green
I want them to get engaged in learning and curiosity and upskilling themselves. Because we can't do it for anyone. We can, we can help. We can't just make someone suddenly, you know, now I'm in it, there's a lot of time, but they are so pressed for time and not just in client service. It's overwhelming. And then in the meantime they're in this like existential dread of an environment. I mean every week feels like it's worse than the last Week was bad. Next week I'm trying not to be depressed about it, but it's a tough time where people are feeling that stress very deeply every time they look at a website or see a newspaper or podcast. So I think we're having this convergence of a lot of uncomfortable things. And then you're right.

33:17
Anne Green
You said earlier there is a thing happening now where it used to be blitzscaling. If you had a startup, the faster you grew the FTE as the team, the more of a darling you were. That was the evidence of success. I think agencies, and I've said this used to be, now we're 10 people, 50 people, 100 people. We counted our success in top line revenue in humans. I think that everybody now is going through this reevaluation. Now, unfortunately, on the flip side, you have the startup community bragging about how few people they have or how much layoffs they've done because of AI.

33:53
Anne Green
And that's fine in the tech space and the startup space, but when that starts leaking into and infecting the general market where you have many organizations and CEOs and I'm not trying to throw rocks in glass houses because we did a small layoff early this year, but that's meaningful. It has nothing to do with AI was really the marketplace. But when you have a lot of people then saying using, well, it's AI, but the fact is they have people already overwhelmed and the AI is not going to do the job of a person. We don't have these perfect agents yet. Some folks do, but very few have it where I'm overseeing. I'm a human overseeing five agents and it's made me so productive and I'm so relaxed. That's not the reality most entities are living in.

34:36
Anne Green
Therefore, we have a super stressed workforce that doesn't have the space nor do they have the psychological bandwidth to feel hopeful and excited and optimistic. Now that sounds very grim and it's not true for everyone because I'm seeing more excitement light up among my own people. But this is where we're at in this workforce moment and we have to be super focused on that as whether we're solo practitioners organizational leaders to actually get people to this next space. Does this resonate? I'm very passionate.

35:10
Daniel Nestle
It very much does. Let me clarify something because I said that, you know, agencies are, you know, they get it and they're in a, you know, they're in a great spot now. People need agencies. That doesn't mean they need agencies in their Current form, it just means, it means that the agencies have an important role to play and will continue to have a very important role. But just like anything else, who are.

35:33
Anne Green
The counselors with the kinds of expertise that, and the humanity to layer on top of the technological capabilities?

35:40
Daniel Nestle
Yeah, and that's one thing. And the other thing is this idea that people are able now to essentially scale without scaling. Right. To have this, you know, they're crowing about having I have five agents, I manage five agents and I get everything done. I, I, I see how some people do this.

36:05
Anne Green
Yes.

36:05
Daniel Nestle
When he says, when I say some people do this, we're talking about like almost nobody. Like almost nobody can do this and. Exactly. And that small elite group.

36:15
Anne Green
Right.

36:16
Daniel Nestle
Does not have the, I'd say layers and layers of accountability, ethical requirements, regulatory guidelines, anything, you know, just name it that a corporate person would have, it does. Even in a small company, you know, there's, you would not trust a team of five AI agents to suddenly take over your back office. It just can't happen because somebody has to be accountable. Because sadly enough, the reason somebody needs to be accountable is because somebody's gotta be fired if something's wrong. You can't fire AI, but you could fire people. Very cynical way of looking at it. But as long as there's a person at the end of the thing to stamp it and say, yes, this is working, this is right, we can have confidence if that person is not there, we societally are not ready to have confidence yet.

37:13
Anne Green
I've been thinking about this a lot just to jump in and my apologies. I've been trying to ask myself, when does true agentic AI become more pervasive? I think that it will happen very slowly and then perhaps very quickly and we'll see it through. Things like, and I do think it may come through the consumer's life, our lives as consumers, where the phone is already playing all kinds of roles, it's suggesting more. It's like low friction AI bubbling up. When the shopping bots, when those barriers come down and we see that pushing and we see more of those types of things, the vacation booking, the shopping, the buying, the groceries, that kind of stuff, perhaps then we start to see it accelerate into a corporate environment. Just like person to person. P2P payments.

38:05
Daniel Nestle
Yeah.

38:06
Anne Green
Peer to peer, although that was rough, came faster in some ways through players like PayPal and others than B2B, you know, electronic payments. Now I'm really dating myself. But it's an interesting question of the.

38:19
Daniel Nestle
Same dating, I think. Yeah. I just, I don't think the trust in the agents is going to be deep enough for a very long time for it to be truly transformative and meaningful now. I mean, book me a trip. Why not? Of course. And if I could, if I could guarantee my, the safety of my payments and my credit cards and stuff. Yeah, by all means. Maybe, you know, this is where you, this is where blockchain and crypto probably come in a little bit. But still, you know, you can do a lot of this. I mean, like, I don't see a point yet where there's an agentic solution that is going to, you know, really cause staffing disruption at a large scale yet. Right. Like, but I agree that it could happen eventually. But regardless, you know, you have people creating these agents.

39:14
Daniel Nestle
I often tell folks that, you know, my startup, my consultancy, I have, me and I have Claude, and Claude is my business buddy. And Claude has multiple projects within Claude that help me figure things out. And then I have a bunch of different apps that I use. But at the end of the day, if I work out a strategy or a product or a service with Claude, I gotta take it away and just look at it myself. I have to figure things out by measuring it against what I know. If I get legal advice from perplexity, which I'm sure that so many people do, right?

39:55
Anne Green
Oh, yeah. Hey, if it's a, if it's, hey.

39:57
Daniel Nestle
Here'S how you write a statement of work. Fine, here's an NDA, here's a contract that's going to guarantee your ip. Here's, here's. Okay, you're signing your life away. No, no. I need, I need a lawyer. I need somebody who's going to take responsibility and put themselves.

40:10
Anne Green
In line of that era of the early days of E commerce and everything going online and all the prognostications about different industries getting decimated. Right? And then what happened is what we saw. And this is where sometimes it's instructive to look back, sometimes it's not. But what we saw was, over time it became clear where humans in the loop were valuable and helpful. It has not E Commerce and all the tools, including this, has not totally disintermediated all travel agents. Most, but not all. It hasn't disintermediated all brokerage and financial advisors. It has not disintermediated, although there's some that will use betterment. All kinds of tools, wonderful tools, right? It has not disintermediated you know, all consultants, all the things. So. And I think that you talked earlier about sort of AI slop.

41:06
Anne Green
There's the consumer side, like the Italian brain rot and all the other crazy stuff that's coming, which makes me laugh. It's so ridiculous. But. And how even games like Roblox are being infected by brain rot stuff and AI stuff. But I do think these things will evolve and we'll start to see where is it that bringing it in feels natural and where does the human need to be in the loop and where do we make that decision on a business side, where do we make that on the consumer side? It's going to be somewhere in the middle on various of these things, you know, and we're. I'm trying to feel out the edges of it. And the same thing with workforce impact. I try to take in all the prognosticating because we've heard a lot of it before. Yep.

41:52
Anne Green
I always figure it's somewhere in the middle. And I'm even, We're doing a town hall tomorrow for my staff. And I'm. I'm talking about some of this change. And I'm saying, I assume two, five and ten years from now, there'll be a lot of stuff that's really recognizable, and then I'm sure there'll be other stuff that won't be. Yeah, but where it will sit and to what degree, that's the really hard part right now, you know?

42:11
Daniel Nestle
Yeah. And I'm glad you went there because that was exactly where I was trying to go here, to this whole idea of what happens to talent. Because as you're speaking like, this is a common conversation. There will be displacement. What kind of displacement? We don't know what kind of displacement, but there will be displacement. But I think part of the conversation is often left out. And that part of the conversation is there's always been displacement. There's always been change. Maybe people worry about the scale here, but with the rate of change, things are going. I don't know if it's going to be nearly as big a scale as, let's say, the financial meltdown of 2007 and 08. We don't know. We simply don't know. It could be two years from now. I could be eating my lunch or I said that four times day.

43:00
Daniel Nestle
I could be eating crow, is what I want to say.

43:03
Anne Green
Eating your words.

43:03
Daniel Nestle
Eating my words. The what?

43:05
Anne Green
Where.

43:06
Daniel Nestle
What I kind of think is like, okay, there's two things that we need to remember.

43:12
Anne Green
First.

43:15
Daniel Nestle
Displacement is not a zero Sum game or nothing's a zero sum game really, because as industries change, other new ones are created. The reason that all of the changes that happened in the to E Commerce, for example, or where there were so many people displaced is because, you know, we had a much smaller economy at the time. We had a much smaller like growth consumer. You can say what you will about consumerism and about capitalism, whatever, but the fact is there's a lot more employment, a lot more jobs, a lot more people working than there were and there's a lot of different kinds of jobs than there ever were before, especially in the knowledge space and knowledge workers. So we don't know. I suspect that similar things are going to happen.

44:08
Daniel Nestle
It might go backwards before it goes forwards, but eventually, call me a optimist, I think it's going to go forward and there will be completely new categories that we don't even. I look at what I'm doing right now and somebody said to me, you're not in comms anymore. I'm like, well, of course I'm in comms, but I'm in other things. I'm in a new thing. I'm making my thing, so who cares what category it is? I'm just sort of making my way. Everybody has the capability to do this now with AI, but it's going to get, it's going to even change even more. So we don't know where that's going. The second thing is that people make predictions based on, you know, linear knowledge, like what they've, what's happened before, they don't think about.

44:48
Daniel Nestle
And it's hard, you know, it's hard to be predictive about anything. But they're so adamant that, well, you know, this is the way things change and this is the trajectory and if we see this happening, then we're going to see this disaster and this disaster. You just don't know, right? There's a probability, you know, be honest about the probabilities, but you just, you simply don't know. I don't think anybody would have predicted half the things that people do these days. So the variety, the kind of unknowing, some people might say chaos.

45:25
Daniel Nestle
But this whole somewhat undefinable future must make it extremely difficult for CEOs like you, Ann, who are trying to map out your talent strategy for figuring out what the future looks like and taking, sometimes taking a few things on faith when you hire somebody that they have the right set of whatever it is that makes them special, the future. And I guess My first big question here in this kind of talent zone is like, can we be hiring for the same skills anymore? Like what are the things that we should be hiring for and does it make sense to have that career track and let's just talk specifically about comms, marketing, communications. Does it make sense to have that career track the same way we always have?

46:13
Anne Green
I want to put a pin in that for one second to talk about the bigger workforce prognostication which is you've got Dario and Anthropic just talking about massive white collar workforce laws and you've got Sam Altman at, I'm going to call them first name Sam@OpenAI. Like they're my good friends. You have Sam@OpenAI saying it's not going to be that bad and Mustafa is probably in the middle. But I think for me my first big thing is I think there's a lot of workforce change and displacement coming. But I would also put on the list climate change and I would put geopolitical issues and I would put the way the US is changing right now in the business environment has made it very hard to operate. Now this administration may be temporary or this may be long lasting change. We don't know.

47:01
Anne Green
But I would say that combined with AI and the way technology changes. Yeah, I do think we're in for some seismic shifts. I'm worried about mass workforce displacement from a societal level because that creates a ton of instability. Right. And we saw what happened with the long tail of globalization and manufacturing and outsourcing and stuff. And that's been those chickens are hanging around being like we're roosting. Do you see us remember us from past? Okay, so when it comes to. So you're right as a CEO and as a partner in a business and someone in this industry where I've been at, when I was at Burst and Marsteller, it was the largest agency in the world, largest office at the time. Now it's dwarfed. That would have been dwarfed by others.

47:44
Anne Green
But fine, then a startup up to, you know, a nice smaller, you know, entity and now kind of a comfortable mid size that's still independent multiple agencies. I wonder every day about the workforce implications and I think what's very interesting is right now I'm not seeing, and I just answered this for either PR Council survey or maybe Davis and Gilbert. I'm not seeing a lot of immediate changes in the hiring yet. I think what's most interesting because I've been really paying attention to this, I think it was almost two years ago or so, when I was talking about AI, it was like, if we're not careful, if we keep talking about entry levels, we're going to end up with no pipeline.

48:25
Daniel Nestle
That's right.

48:27
Anne Green
Our future coming from. So what's been interesting to me is where this conversation has kind of rolled around into different levels. So first there was discussion about, ooh, entry levels are going to be really screwed and we're not going to need them. Okay. Then it moved on to, ooh, I think senior people are in trouble. I think, you know, they're the ones, right. And they're highest paid and all that. Now it's moved on to, ooh, I think it's the mid levels. They're the ones that are entrenched, but are they going to be able to upskill? And the younger people are going to come in more AI native over time. Although a lot of college students have very different feelings. Some are like, damn the torpedoes, let's go. Others like, we're not using it that much at school. Like, we have issues with it environmentally.

49:07
Anne Green
Bias, ethics, authenticity. Like my summer intern, she was like, at school, you know, the liberal arts context were a little bit like, she was glad to see it being used in a business context. More balanced things. So. And I do think a lot of senior people are just being cut loose in general. I think Gen X is really getting it right now. Oh, yeah. Because of just shrinking back and that's going to be really hard. So where do we net out? I don't know. I'm trying to feel it out still. But one thing, here's what I would say. Here's where my lens is very clear. Dan, you said earlier agencies need to look at their business model. I 100% agree. How are we staffing? What do clients need? Agility, nimbleness, flexibility of mindset, growth. Mindset is my big thing. Yep.

49:53
Anne Green
The idea of, yes, we can, let's try. I absolutely feel that we need to interrogate. How many people do we need inside our house as FTEs and where do we need to partner? Because there are perennial agency issues like underutilization of certain groups at certain times that we can't hide from because client margins are. Our margins are tighter because clients are under more pressure. Less AORs, more project work, more nimbleness and more changes. You know, clients will be going along with a business plan and something drops out of the sky. So I think for me, it's really about right now. What is the structure for success? Who do we need as FTEs and what does that look like in the future, how do we partner even more smartly? And then what does it mean to be smart and nimble?

50:44
Anne Green
And the last thing I will say is I'm all about showing our work when it comes to AI, which is be really open with the clients to say, wow, we're using it in this way. This is what we're seeing, you know, this is what we're going to bring to you. We're going to be able to bring more value before procurement has that conversation for us.

50:59
Daniel Nestle
Yeah, yeah, that's smart. I mean, I'm always behind the idea of transparency for sure. And I know that since you're on the ethics council, I should say that, you know, I'm not being performative. If you read any of my pieces, I'm always about like, this is how I did this.

51:13
Anne Green
Oh, yeah, absolutely.

51:15
Daniel Nestle
But it's interesting side, little sidebar, somebody. There was a report the other day from academia that said that people who are transparent about using AI are less trusted than their colleagues. I do not believe this.

51:30
Anne Green
I don't know if I do either. I think there's a lot of weird research out there right now and I don't doubt it. It's just. I get where it's coming from, but there's so much happening.

51:38
Daniel Nestle
I think it's very strictly in academia. For anybody out there who's seeing this come around, I think it's strictly. And I can see that. I can see that, you know, academics who've spent all their time researching and doing so much writing and suddenly AI can pump out a, an abstract in 30 seconds. You know, you want to be careful.

51:55
Anne Green
I agree. What I observe at our agency is when people are really leaning into. Because we have this AI enablement team, so it's cross functional across age and we share. Last year was about exploration, this year is more about enablement. But when people share even across to be like, oh, I'm using it for this way, I'm using it for analysis, or I did idea generation, then I took it here. The trust factor goes way up versus suspecting something. And especially if it's a manager managee relationship where there's already a hierarchy. And one thing I laugh about people in comms is as they get older, everyone becomes such a hard ass. They're like, when I was your dad. Exactly. You know, we work so hard. I put my head down and I'm like, it's a life stage thing.

52:37
Anne Green
But there's a high bar of expectation of work. And if you're wondering if someone's using it and not telling you. I agree. That's when the trust goes down.

52:46
Daniel Nestle
You can usually tell. You can usually tell because somebody who's using it and not telling you does not have the confidence of knowledge and wisdom to back up their work. And if you have the confidence and knowledge to do that, you're taking time. You know, like I write things or create things a whole lot faster than ever before, but I write more. So I'm still using more time than I did before for the purpose of creation. Changes my job, changes the way I kind of look at things. But, but you know, going back to what you're saying there, there's. So the transparency is very important but the idea that agencies need to, business models are changing, et cetera. This is kind of everywhere across the boards. The pipeline itself.

53:40
Daniel Nestle
You mentioned college students coming in, you know, and they haven't been using it that much. I have Gen Z daughters. They don't really use AI almost at all. Like hardly at all.

53:52
Anne Green
Some do. So it's. But I think it will increase. I think it'll be hockey stick going on. But right now it's not. We can't assume that just because they're coming out of college that they're steeped.

54:03
Daniel Nestle
What, what I would venture to guess at this point because we don't know. But what I venture to guess at this point is that you, the people coming in the so called entry level, they're not going to be able to just say, yeah, I'm gonna get into this. LLM, Claude, ChatGPT, whatever it is, give me Gemini. Right. And I am going to be creating or pumping out work at the same level as a, you know, as a VP of whatever as, or as a senior account executive. It's just not going to happen. And the expectation that they can do that is completely off base. Can they be immediately trusted to draft basic documents? For sure. But you have to. It's just drafting. It's just drafting.

54:50
Anne Green
It's still training and still training. The other thing, it's still training and it's still engagement.

54:55
Daniel Nestle
Yeah.

54:55
Anne Green
With each level to give the. That's what's missing when you're younger is context.

54:59
Daniel Nestle
Context. Right.

55:00
Anne Green
Context that comes from experience is missing.

55:03
Daniel Nestle
Exactly.

55:03
Anne Green
And that's, and AI doesn't just suddenly supply that because AI is still evolving itself.

55:10
Daniel Nestle
That's, that is exactly right. The context is so critical here. So when somebody comes out of college and you give them AI it's like suddenly that you think that they can. It's different than any other. I don't even call it a software technology anymore. It's like it's just this. It's AI is AI. You don't use it the same way. You don't think about it the same way, you don't approach it the same way. You don't even know what you can do with it, frankly. But when you get it in your hands and you understand that this is something that you can, that you have to have a particular style of communication with in order to get the results that you want, right? The results are going to differ person to person.

55:46
Daniel Nestle
And the distances to which you will go in that iteration, in that interrogation, how you know, how you construct your queries, your prompts, that comes with a little bit experience. But you're not going to know any of that out of college. The people coming out of college have to be exposed to the business context and then everything changes. Because that's where, you know, you start to see with time and with a lot of curiosity, you know, oh, wait, I can connect that piece with this piece. How would I do that? Maybe if I asked this. Now that didn't work. Maybe I asked this, oh, you know what? I'm going to try this. And you just keep going at it. So this experimentation, this culture of curiosity, of experimentation, of growth, mindset, right? All of that has to be, I'd.

56:40
Anne Green
Say.

56:43
Daniel Nestle
Either you have to have a propensity towards that or I don't know how it can be taught, but you have to pick that up. I think to succeed. As a young junior employee now, I don't know if companies are recognizing that those are the things that are needed to succeed.

56:59
Anne Green
Yeah, the curiosity piece. It's so funny. I was with a number of leaders and they're going around and saying, what are they looking for? A number of folks, heads of CEOs or senior leaders within large holding companies, of the integrated marketing, communications firms. And the idea of intellectual curiosity, like enthusiasm, real curiosity, and I'm from a liberal arts background, any kind of educational background or even limited educational, formal background can be amazing. I really honor many different pathways. But I do think that idea of the liberal arts, which looks at broad education, connecting the dots, seeing patterns, is a great preparation for this world.

57:40
Anne Green
But the one thing I'll say about younger people, and I really hope that our industry does not cut off its nose despite its face, right, with our pipeline, is that there is, especially at this moment, a beauty of the beginner's mind, that person who's coming in with curiosity and freshness, who also the beautiful thing again about multi generational workforce is the younger folks will always be, even if they're not. Like there was this idea, oh, they're social media natives. It took a few years. They're AI natives. It took a few years. Right, but. And meanwhile older generations were steeping themselves too. But they've grown up with a different set of technology in a different world than I did at 54, being born in 71. Certain things will be more obvious to them, even if it's not AI related. Yeah, it was a shame.

58:25
Anne Green
And so, but I think that idea of the beginner's mind of someone who's very bright, really curious, excited to start, not sort of caught up in, well, I have to do a certain thing and I can't do the grunt work or whatever, which is always the thing we wrestle with in professional services because we grow by doing. And I do think there will be new types of entry level work where we can show folks how, hey, you're still going to be doing this monitoring, but agentic AI can help there, or you can learn to prompt this, or we're doing a very high level consulting project right now around reputation, where we said to the client from the beginning, this will be a mix of human and AI analysis.

59:06
Anne Green
And so it's been really interesting to watch one of our younger employees playing with these executive level transcripts in a protected environment, putting them through prompting, exploring, seeing what does it come out to try. While I'm also doing a paper cut, you know, literally paper and pen to pull out what I see are the insights. And then we're going to compare them. And it's a really interesting iterative process. So I think our younger employees are a superpower if we're collaborating with them in the way we need to be collaborating throughout our organizations to find out how does this actually augment us. Back to that core question again, and.

59:47
Daniel Nestle
What is going to be necessary? And as this AI human mix, you know, I can see us having, you know, bringing people in and training them by reverse prompting. Okay, here's your, here's, here's the result. Tell me what your prompts are going to be to get to this result. Like it's a training program, you want to give, you know, you need to give people room. Just like you give people room to experiment. You're going to need people, give people room, new people, more room to train in different ways. And be very creative about it. I don't know what the answer is.1.

01:00:18
Anne Green
One other quick thing I wanted to mention because I think this is really important as we have more virtual engagement, hybrid working, more AI engagement. One of the other things, the counter, it's not even a counterbalance. It's just the yin and the yang or it's the both and is. I as an organizational leader is working to release more capital to bring people together in person more. We're very distributed. And so that's also where the humanity comes through. The learning, the peer to peer exchange, the curiosity, the joy and the passion for our work. Because most people who come into this world, not everybody, you know, some of our teams are coders or others who really love having a smaller social group. They don't need to be with people all the time. They're designing and creating, you know, they're getting their energy in different ways.

01:01:06
Anne Green
But when we can take the technological world and the virtual world and then pair it with that rich human experience, that's the kind of stuff that gets me excited.

01:01:16
Daniel Nestle
I think that inhuman, the in person.

01:01:21
Anne Green
In human.

01:01:24
Daniel Nestle
Oh boy. It always happens here. The in person experience that's purely human cannot be replaced. That's not a call for. It shouldn't be. And that's not a call for like, that doesn't mean office hours or anything like this. Whatever works for your company. I mean events, conferences, you know, off sites, getting together, being social, if you need to be social, totally important. And it, that will be continue to be our advantage as humans. On, on humans. As humans to, you know, when we put our brains together, when we sit around and sit around when we're in a collaborative, creative environment. I don't think that you're going to get anything close to the results that you would if you're sitting with Claude. No, all due respect to Claude, because I'm sure that somewhere will not make Claude mad. I get great.

01:02:24
Daniel Nestle
I love working with Claude and I like brainstorming with Claude. I like brainstorming with people in a room better. And then I'll take that back to Claude, say hey Claude, see what people can do. What are you gonna make of this? And then Claude, help me know what to make of it. But it's just an interesting dynamic anyway. We are definitely heading to this very strange and mixed up future, I'm sure. And with leaders like you at the helm, Ann, I mean you have, I think you have the best interest of the kids, let's say at Heartbeat. I mean, everybody's best interest at Hearts for your organization and you're going to do what's best for your clients.

01:03:03
Anne Green
I think this is a time where we have to be open to many things being true at once and we have to feel for the edges and we have to keep allowing ourselves to learn. And I love to learn. And I love to learn in all kinds of ways. So that's a good thing right now because that's the energy we need.

01:03:20
Daniel Nestle
I think that's why we get along. I mean, we'll get along for a lot of reasons, but this whole. This just. I mean, just the. The thirst for learning and just sort of understanding what's going on around us. I always learn something when I'm talking to you, Ann, and today was no different. I'm gonna. I've got some notes. We didn't even get to Geo. Boy, oh, boy. Something that. That we need to talk about another time. But.

01:03:41
Anne Green
Yep.

01:03:42
Daniel Nestle
What is happening with Geo? Let's put a pin in that one. And I will say, though, that I. Man, I have a lot to process from this, but I am. I'm so grateful you were on. Is there any final words that you want to say to our listeners before. Before we head out?

01:04:00
Anne Green
Just remembering on a human level how overwhelming this moment of change is and that there's a lot of heavy stuff in the world beyond that and that our business selves and what we're trying to achieve there and the pressure to achieve is all tied up in it. So we've got to give ourselves a break. We got to give ourselves some grace. I think the world needs a lot more kindness, and that includes in the workplace and how we care for one another and give each other some grace and space and positive intent. Because to get through times like this is really hard. And that includes the AI of it all. So my big thing is, for myself, first and foremost, is how do I find that gentleness?

01:04:38
Anne Green
And my big mantra the last year or so is hold less tightly, unclench the hands and open up the palms. So that's the last thing I'd offer, folks. Hold less tightly.

01:04:48
Daniel Nestle
Hold less tightly. Hold less tightly. Unclench. I think that's brilliant. It's up there with touch grass. I think we need to do this, do all this stuff. Well, everybody, that's Anne Green. I mean, I don't have to tell you that she's going to come back again, even though she doesn't know it. So she'll be a three Peter at some point. You can find Anne on the web@GSCommunications.com and also on LinkedIn. And it's Anne with an e in green with no e but her. Her, her name will be spelled properly in the episode title and graphic, as you all know. And look for building brand Gravity on YouTube and I guess wherever there are podcasts available or it's just YouTube.

01:05:31
Anne Green
Wherever you get podcasts, you can get it just in your ears. You can watch it, whatever you want. I like to listen to podcasts. That's my channel.

01:05:39
Daniel Nestle
I do too.

01:05:39
Anne Green
Whatever people want to do, I do too.

01:05:41
Daniel Nestle
But I'm doing this video stuff now because apparently some people like to watch.

01:05:45
Anne Green
Who knew?

01:05:46
Daniel Nestle
Who knew?

01:05:47
Anne Green
Check us out.

01:05:48
Daniel Nestle
I really, I loved being on Building Brag Gravity. I think, you know, it's a, if I do say so myself, it's right up there with the trending Communicator, as great conversations go. And you know, I do appreciate the opportunity and you know, everybody out there. Again, check out Ann on the on LinkedIn and@GSCommunications.com and thank you very much for coming by.

01:06:10
Anne Green
Thank you. Bye, Dan.

01:06:17
Daniel Nestle
Thanks for taking the time to listen in on today's conversation. If you enjoyed it, please be sure to subscribe through the podcast player of your choice. Share with your friends and colleagues and leave me a review. Five stars would be preferred, but it's up to you. Do you have ideas for future guests or you want to be on the show? Let me know@dantrendingcommunicator.com thanks again for listening to the trending Communicator.