PR is Juggling Knives on Fire While Riding a Unicycle - with Abenaa Hayes

Dan Nestle [00:00:00]: Welcome or welcome back to the trending Communicator. I'm your host, Dan Nestle. You know what I've been thinking about lately? Juggling. Not the hobby kind, though. If you can juggle like flaming torches, more power to you. But the professional kind, the kind that we do every day as communicators. I mean, think about it. We're constantly keeping multiple priorities in the air. Client expectations, audience sensitivities, brand positioning, crisis management, stakeholder relations. List goes on. And just when you think you've got a good rhythm going, someone tosses you another responsibility. Maybe it's a social platform you need to understand. Maybe it's a cultural shift that changes how your audience thinks about your industry. Maybe it's a regulatory change that affects how you can even talk about your products. We're not just juggling our own professional demands. We're often placed at or we charge straight into societal inflection points, too. So suddenly people are looking to us for advice on what positions to take, when to take them, when to speak up versus when to stay quiet. We become the arbiters of organizational voice during moments of social change. And how did we get there? We're just communications people, right? But then AI shows up, and now it's like we're juggling knives on fire while riding a unicycle on a high wire. I mean, the tools are powerful but dangerous if you don't know what you're doing. The price and the pace of change is accelerating. And the stakes, both the opportunities and the risks, keep getting higher. Well, my guest today has been perfecting this juggling act for over two decades, but with a particular specialty, helping executives and organizations navigate inclusion and social impact communications without losing their footing. As the founder and CEO of Elise Consulting, she doesn't just help companies say the right things. She helps them figure out how to authentically live their values in a fractured landscape where performative statements can backfire spectacularly. She's navigated this complexity at agencies like Edelman Real Chemistry, and Weber Shandwick, building inclusion and health equity practices from scratch, and serving clients across healthcare, corporate reputation, and social impact. She's been adding elements to her juggling routine, intentionally founding DEI programs, positioning herself at the intersection of communications and strategy and social justice, more and most importantly, helping organizations move from good intentions to authentic action. Recently recognized as one of the top 50 of the future of Black America by Pawstock, she brings something that's increasingly rare in our profession, the ability to help organizations walk their talk when it comes to 21st century social and societal mandates, especially when the stakes are highest. I want to explore how she's managed this increasingly complex juggling act, what she's learned about operating at these societal inflection points, and how she helps organizations build trust through inclusive communications that actually mean something. So please join me in welcoming my friend, the amazing, the wonderful Abena Hayes, founder and CEO of Elise Consulting. Abby. Thank you.

Abenaa Hayes [00:03:17]: Thank you.

Dan Nestle [00:03:17]: Good to see you. How are you?

Abenaa Hayes [00:03:19]: Good to be here. I only got good. I'm so glad we made this happen today.

Dan Nestle [00:03:22]: Yeah, me too. And, you know, I'm thrilled that I actually was able to pronounce Abena right the first time around. But for our listeners here, you know, I've known Abby for a while, and it's always Abby. But, you know, you want to search for her on LinkedIn or do something else, and you'll see, you'll say Abena, which is spelled A B, E, N with two A's at the end, right?

Abenaa Hayes [00:03:45]: Yep.

Dan Nestle [00:03:45]: And that always makes me think, like, to extend that last syllable, Ebina. But I've been schooled and taught the right way. For some reason, I still. I still can't get elysees right. But I got it right that time. But I. But Elysees, I keep saying. I keep thinking Shanz. Elysees. And I want to say this. I want to say Elyse, not Elise. So I don't know which is correct. But anyway, Abby, it is great to see you.

Abenaa Hayes [00:04:11]: Same here. Same here.

Dan Nestle [00:04:13]: This is what you've been up to. What you've been up to. I know it's. It's. As of the time, it's recording, it's summer. People think things are slow, but they're not slow. Been a lot going on. No, certainly in your world. So. So what's going on?

Abenaa Hayes [00:04:27]: The world has not been slow because the way the world has been operating means people have to show up and communicate in so many different ways. But ultimately, as you'd said at the top of this, I mean, if ever there was a time for anyone to truly live and lead through their values, this is it. Because there's been so much, like, volatility, so much disruption from a range of perspectives, be it social issues, be it tech, be it just like how people actually engage with brands, it really, truly means that you not only need to have the frameworks in place to make sure that you're communicating authentically, but that you also have to make sure that you're showing up in the right way. Because I think if we've learned anything because we're talking having this conversation in August 2025, I would say in the last year or so, the landscape has become so splintered, so fractured. Right. With multiple voices. You have to make sure that you show up where you need to show up and actually are being heard by the people that you looking to reach.

Dan Nestle [00:05:36]: I always, I hear, I hear communicators talk about this and I say the same thing about showing up in the right way, in the right place. What, what does showing up mean? Like, really, when it comes down to it, you know, I've been accused of being like too metaphorical sometimes by, you know, by executives over the course of my career and more than one CEO has said show up. What I got to get on a plane, what's going on? Where do I like, what do you mean by showing up? So like, what is, what is showing up exactly? If you can kind of nail it to a couple of points.

Abenaa Hayes [00:06:14]: So I would say showing up for me from a company or brand perspective is ensuring you're articulating either a point of view or a position that is not only connected to your business, but to your people. So I'll use an example. We know that there have been multiple executive orders in the universe of De and I. And so you've seen multiple changes, approaches, evolution. But if you look at what the Marriott CEO had to say about his business and why it is that they were going to stay true to inclusion, it was because they're a global company, they serve people, people come stay in their properties around the world. That means you're dealing with people from different backgrounds, different cultures, different perspectives. So you have to actually be inclusive in order to run that business. Right. The CEO of Elf Beauty also framed it through the lens of his customers. He's running a multimillion dollar, probably close to a billion dollar beauty brand that reaches a range of customers. He can't not be inclusive because you know what, there's money on the table that he will lose and he's had 20 plus quarters of strong business results. So why walk away from that when you know, at the end of the day this serves your business. So to me that those are both examples of showing up. Right. And standing in your values. Because without doing that, they would have no business, but they also would probably have no people working for them.

Dan Nestle [00:07:51]: Yeah, the one, the one word I would add maybe to what to, to the showing up thing is an adverb. And I don't like adverse very much, but is, is, is visibly, you know, so, so yes, being you Know, having, having the right message, articulating your point of view, but it doesn't make. You're not showing up if you just do it in a. Into a black hole. Right. So you, you have to be, you have to be out there, but you have to be out there appropriately. And I think that's where a lot of people struggle is. What is appropriately? Like, is it. Is it just I post something and then I walk away? Is it. I need to keep pounding the drum? And you know, from what you've written and from what you've said and the times we've talked, I know that the answer is always, it depends and it varies. And it's all about what your values are and what your audiences are. And we'll get into that just, I'm sure, as we talk. But one thing occurred to me as you were talking and I think I asked the same thing of, to our, to our mutual friend Alicia, Alicia Gibson. Right. By the way, former guest of the show. Amazing. Amazing. You know, Alicia's area is, and she calls it cultural communications and you know, know, specifically she's, she's bringing the message of healthcare to underserved communities. Right. That need that kind of message in a different way than most people. Right. But DE and I, for sure, and you mentioned all the executive orders and we don't do politics on the show. But, but DE and I, right. Has. Has really been poorly branded over the last year or so. Right. Maybe even longer than that depends on you talk to. But I think there's a DEI brand that's different than from. Than what DE and I actually is. And it's interesting you just, you use the word inclusion because in my mind, inclusion is the most important part of that whole thing for communicators, it's just inclusion and how far you go with that. And we can have philosophical discussions about what the right, you know, kind of levers to pull are on inclusion, but do you see this as a challenge to you or to people who are focusing in this particular area? Are you trying to separate, maybe unconsciously even, but are you trying to separate inclusion as the force from the rest of it or how are you packaging the whole thing when you talk about what formerly used to be just, just thrown out there as D E I D I D E I? We don't say that anymore. Right. So is. Is there a more.

Abenaa Hayes [00:10:25]: Is.

Dan Nestle [00:10:26]: Is the focus more on inclusion? And if so, you know, why inclusion over. Over the other things.

Abenaa Hayes [00:10:34]: So I'd say, I mean, DE and I is one of these things. That has evolved over time based on, you know, what's been happening environmentally, but also bigger picture, what, you know, businesses actually need. And for me, I mean, I personally am less about the acronym and more about what you're actually doing. Because when you actually think of what it is, it is so much more than what it's been branded as. Right. And I lean into inclusion because at the end of the day, if we know that we are looking to show up as a company, as a brand, as people that support the communities around us to people who buy our products, you have to literally be inclusive. You can't do anything at the expense of anybody else. Right. Different perspectives matter. The experiences of people from different backgrounds, be it cultural, ethnic and beyond, matter. Right. So how do you make sure that you're literally like bringing everybody in and giving people seats at the table and making them see that they're being seen, heard and valued? To me, that's ultimately what it's about.

Dan Nestle [00:11:39]: Yeah.

Abenaa Hayes [00:11:40]: And if I just look at the demographics, both of the US and globally, like we're truly operating in a multicultural and multiethnic world. So if you want to actually make sure you're being forward looking, you're building, you know, companies that have the right type of talent, you're building products that everybody could use. Ultimately, to me, it's about being inclusive.

Dan Nestle [00:12:02]: Yeah, I, it's, it's so interesting how different people interpret the breadth of what that means. And I like the way that you phrased it. I really do. I think, you know, I've, I've, I've experienced it from various different leadership teams, what they're expecting or what they're wanting. And certainly the timing is, is everything as well. Like it was different in 2012 than it was in 2016, than it was in 2018, in 2021, God forbid, and know, then here we are now in 2025, which is a completely different world too. So like the, you know, the, the way that we interpret and kind of execute on those ideas does change and vary over time, but inclusivity itself, you know, you've been really a force for this and you said something that actually was also another thing that, that I've struggled with when asked, and I want to ask the expert here, which is being inclusive, and I'm paraphrasing being inclusive. Inclusive means, you know, communicating without, like, you can't do anything to the exclusion of anyone. Right. So you're defining it by its opposite. Right. So like, we have to be inclusive. We can't go out there as A. Especially as a global company or as a. As an organization with multiple audiences, you know, you need to be inclusive because you can't do anything that's to the exclusion of anyone else. What happens when the inclusive message that you're going for actually ends up excluding someone or some team or some group or some, I don't know, entity or, or, or. Or whatever? I mean, how do you reconcile?

Abenaa Hayes [00:13:52]: So, I mean, for me, you know, in all my different experiences across agency and then also working as a consultant, I try to make sure that there are processes in place to actually avoid that from happening. But one, we're human. Two, you know, we operate in a world where, like, perceptions, nomenclature, and meaning changes so quickly. Right. That there are instances in which people do actually fumble. And I think in those instances where the fumbles happen, that's where you have to just be honest, open, and vulnerable in making the error, in the error and mistake that was made, correcting it, and making sure that you're more purposeful moving forward. I mean, I think, you know, I'm sure you've seen this, Dan, all over the interwebs, but there's been all of this conversation about the American Eagle campaign.

Dan Nestle [00:14:42]: The Sydney Sweeney stuff.

Abenaa Hayes [00:14:44]: Send me sweetie.

Dan Nestle [00:14:45]: Yeah, as of the time of this recording, it's sort of petered out a little bit, but, yeah, it's peter out.

Abenaa Hayes [00:14:50]: A little bit, but it's an interest. It's a very important kind of case study in terms of how something make something that should have stayed in a brainstorm room made it out into the world. That's the first thing. But secondly, even after the fumble and the criticism, the actual apology wasn't really much of an apology.

Dan Nestle [00:15:08]: There was no apology.

Abenaa Hayes [00:15:09]: Yeah, right. They. They said it was an apology, but it wasn't really an apology. So, I mean, that is an example of where, you know, we will. We weren't in that room, but someone probably thought that this was all very cute and probably thought, harken, back to, you know, the Brooke Shields. Now I'm dating myself with those ads.

Dan Nestle [00:15:29]: I hear you.

Abenaa Hayes [00:15:30]: Why don't we do a little throwback and whatever else. And yes, it may ruffle a few feathers, but sometimes that's what brands do. We live in an attention economy, right? So everybody's going for the attention, but the attention at the expense of what? Because, like, as of today, even though the conversations petered out, we know stock price is down. Right. People are, like, questioning and challenging, like, how marketing, like, actually operates. And is this going to be the way kind of given the world that we're in. There's so many questions and so much debate. But, like, in my mind, that is a classic example of how not only having the right people in the room is important, but actually asking yourselves those questions before you put it out in the world. Right. I distinctly recall an instance with a client of mine a few years ago who had an ad that they thought cute, cool, but they previewed it at a meeting only to find out that it offended several people from the patient population they wanted to reach, so they had to pull it. And this thing made it through all levels of review, but no one actually stopped to call it out because you had people operating from, like, a sea of sameness.

Dan Nestle [00:16:48]: Yeah.

Abenaa Hayes [00:16:48]: So, I mean, that's where, like, I think, poking holes, having, like, people who are, like, outside of your bubble and echo chamber review things, because then you can mitigate that doesn't protect you entirely.

Dan Nestle [00:17:00]: No.

Abenaa Hayes [00:17:00]: But it should give you some air cover.

Dan Nestle [00:17:03]: Yeah. Now, if your strategy is to. Is to poke the bear. Right?

Abenaa Hayes [00:17:07]: Right.

Dan Nestle [00:17:08]: And to. And to make those, you know, those be provocative, well, so be it. Right. Then you have to deal with the consequences. But you should be ready for that. You should have a strategy in place. Like, I. It's interesting because I'm certainly old enough to remember the Brook Shields ads. I mean, I was. I was a kid, but I remember them. And a lot of the Calvin stuff, Calvin Klein stuff that was coming out during the 80s and. And even into the 90s, was very, very risque. And certainly, you know, I get it, you know, the throwback. And there are cultural shifts that happen all the time. They just. What always amazes me, or kind of, and it shouldn't, but it does surprise me, is that is the bubble thinking I think you just talked about is you think that the culture is shifting in your favor. And you know what? Maybe it is if you have a certain value system. But you have to remember that this is a multi. Like a pluralistic and multivalued multicultural society. So if you lean too far in one direction, you will alienate others. So you might take that as part of the course and be cool with it. And that's fine if that's your value system. All right, There are ways to do that in acceptable fashion. But. But somebody's gotta have a copywriter or, like a. Like, not a. Not just a copywriter, but a. A writer editor who is relatively fluent in communications to review these kinds of things before they go out. And you can take their advice or leave it. But somebody should have said you know, when you say the word genes, there's gonna be something in happening in people's minds. You can dismiss that or you can just acknowledge it's going to happen and deal with it, or you can be like, what are they talking about? They're being silly, you know, and I'm, I'm sure that it's a mix of all those things, but that those all would have been flags to me as a communicator. But like, you know, be careful now. If you want to have, if you're thinking it's time to bring, you know, to bring those, those types of, you know, those types of sex selling ads back, okay, fine, that's the marketing plan. But you don't have to do it in like, in a way that's going to immediately inflame a very solidly large portion of the population. Agree or not, it's just be practical about it. And that's where inclusion, I think what you're talking about has to come into play. And the creators of those campaigns or of any campaign or anything that you're doing for external communications or advertising, they shouldn't look at the inclusion specialist as a cop. They should look at the inclusion specialist as somebody who's like bringing to, to, to the table the possibilities and, and the, you know, the, the advice of, hey, look, this is the reality, this is what's going to happen. This is how, this, this is what you, what you might, what you might not, you might not achieve what you want to achieve. Here's how you can achieve what you want to achieve. Right? And then you bring the value. But I, I'm, I'm treading in your territory a little bit there. I just think it's such a fascinating cultural study that we're looking at right now. Right, but let's bring it back. We're talking about inclusion, we're talking about your focus on inclusion impact. And I kind of want to know a little bit about how you got there. You know, I know you have a fascinating family history and a personal history as well, but why did you lean into this particular part of communications? Why communications and not something else? You know, free floor answer. You know, you can answer however you like, but how'd you get here?

Abenaa Hayes [00:21:12]: So the way I got here was really interesting. So I'll answer the communications piece first. So first of all, I come from a culture of storytelling, so I grew up in Trinidad and Tobago. And if you meet any person from Trinidad and probably argue other islands, we tell a lot of, we talk about things in stories. So I kind of grew up with that kind of in my DNA, if you will. And then I actually wanted to be a journalist. So my first career ambition in life was to be, like, an international correspondent. I loved Christiana Manpour. Like, I saw all of her reporting from the war zones in Yugoslavia, and somehow I was like, I want to be her, because I think she was actually one of the first women actually hired as a correspondent by the network. And so I went to journalism school, went to usc, did the full on resume tape and everything, and was like, this is going to be it. And then there was a recession at that time, and I was like, you know, coming out of grad school, needing to pay down those student loans and make sure I had a job pivoted very quickly into communications. And the selling point at the time was, since I come out of journalism school, I knew news when I saw it. They were like, you'd be perfect to do media relations and also help with writing. And I fell into healthcare because not only did I find the sector interesting at the time, but my late father was actually a doctor. And when he passed away, my mother actually, as her own side hustle, took over managing healthcare nonprofit that my dad had created that was providing discounted healthcare to people with kidney disease. And during, like, all the healthcare observances, my mother would write brochure copy for people about, like, why World Kidney Day was important, why you need to look after your kidneys. We had this whole thing called Neff News, because nephrons in your kidneys are the things that filter everything in your body called Neph News Goes to School. And we created all this animation for it, so I'd be, like, handing out brochures and stuff. So. And I just kind of did it because it's what my mom did. Right. Well, fast forward to this agency gig. Suddenly I'm actually doing the work. And I saw my mom's like, oh, funny how this all came together. And I think I was lucky at the time that I got to work on two medicines that were breakthrough medicines in the treatment of hiv because it was interesting science. Obviously, there was a lot of. Like, there were a lot of social issues tied to it. So there was a lot of patient advocacy work that was done with the LGBTQ community. So I got to take really complicated ideas, tell meaningful stories, and talk about the impact on humans. And I really love that because it allowed me to bring the journalism skills to bear. It made me feel like I was actually making a difference in people's lives because these Medications were. And it made. Was like a interesting way of leading into a toolbox and also like a lived experience that I never thought of. Right. I suddenly was like, doing the stuff I just thought my mom did, just as giving back. So that's kind of how I fell into it.

Dan Nestle [00:24:26]: Yeah, in a way, it just felt right. It's like putting in a pair of shoes, like a nice. That.

Abenaa Hayes [00:24:30]: That fit.

Dan Nestle [00:24:30]: That fit well, you know, don't want to put a bad shoes, but it's amazing. Yeah, that's funny. I'm just. You make me think about, you know, this whole storytelling thing, you know, and we've talked about this on the show many times. The art. The art and science of storytelling. And you know, how when we as communicators and marketers talk about telling stories, it's often not heard in the same way that it's kind of like saying inclusion, you know, like your audience, meaning your leadership team or your clients, they hear the word story and they think fairy tale. Or they think like, oh, you're just mucking around and creating shit from. From like, thin air. But. But really that. It's the storytelling, the idea of being able to build narratives that connect with people, that persuade people that have a. That have an arc, you know, that that makes sense or, you know, all that stuff, that's. That. That's hard work, and it takes a lot of time. But people who have that in their family history. I'd love to do a study one day because I think there's a lot of that in our. In our. Especially in our profession. Like, I think about. I wonder how many people we can ask that will answer a question in this way. What's your connection to storytelling? Well, in my case, and this is truly, truly my case, I spent so much time with my grandmother when I was a kid in. In Bayonne, New Jersey. My grandmother owned a knitting store. Right. She sold. Sold wool, you know, knitting wool. And it. She was always like, I, you know, she was in her 70s or, you know, something. What. When I'm remembering all this, but I don't remember any customers ever in that store. I just remember her and her gaggle of. Of CRO. Of like, of all these Crohn's or old lady. That's what it seemed like to me. Like. Like, just, like, just this. What you would imagine, I think a group of six or seven, you know, senior citizen women in house coats, you know, house dresses with curlers in their hair, sitting around a counter, and they would talk about whatever. But the place was called Ann Nestle Yarns. And it wasn't till much later that I learned that a yarn is a story. And she would just sit there in that store and just hold court. She was the prime storyteller. She, she told all sorts of stories about family and about, you know, gossip and all this kind of stuff and, and the cast of characters that walk in and out of that place. Someday I'm gonna have to do a memoir because it was just, it was, it was unbelievable. And I mean, the place was filthy. It was a yarn store. She was like 78, 70 something years old. I don't think she swept the floor. Like just. I would crawl around there as a four year old kid and my mom would go, would come because it was like a block or two away from my house. Mom would come, go, just like have to come and sweep, like, sweep my knees, like smack my knees off. Like, what's all that dirt? But yeah, anyway, so that story, like storytelling started there. She was a fine story. My dad was a great storyteller. And they didn't, like, they weren't comms or PR people, but, but it makes sense that that comes from family in a lot of ways. Right? But something, another thing that you, you were talking about that switch from journalism, from your journalism direction to comms, not uncommon, right. I think people look back on that now, people who have gone to the dark side, as they say, and work in pr. Right. I wonder how many people are looking back on that and going, phew, I made the right choice. Or how many people are looking back and saying, I should have stayed with that because they need me. Because journalism is a weird place right now. Right? I mean, it's the state of journalism, state of media. Now you are, you know, you're one of the, I think, one of the smartest people I know about this particular topic about media, about journalism and, you know, not just for healthcare, but just in general. So how are you seeing the state of media these days and looking forward, like, how do you think, you know, we as communicators should be looking at media and media relations.

Abenaa Hayes [00:29:05]: So I mean, I think, and it's funny because I'm in a like total, like group chat with my book club where we've been talking about this topic, but through the lens of what's happened with PBS and everything else. But it kind of brought up the broader topic, which is we know we're operating in a totally fractured environment and there's this phrase that was coined by the founders of Axios, where they, where they Refer to the media environment are like the shards of glass environment, right? I mean, and this is a trend we've been seeing happen over time, right? Everything's become splintered. People are operating in different echo chambers. They're going to different platforms and different spaces to get information. So you no longer operate in a way where, like, stuff starts with legacy media, gets amplified on social, and then gets pulled through somewhere else, like a website or whatever. Like, people are. It's like almost like very like audience and the kind of like destination focused. So that then tells me that obviously people need to truly go to their audiences where they are, right. And kind of connect with them where they're getting that information. But the other piece to it is. Which goes back to your point, Dan, about, like, the people who've come over to the dark sites. It used to be like, a terrible thing. Like, oh, my gosh, why on God's green earth did you do that? Like, when I did it, the reaction from my professor at USC at the time was like, please don't go back to the real thing. However, when you look at it through today's lens and how everyone shows up, everyone here is telling a story in some which way, shape or form. Right? And like, brands, be it corporate brands, people with their personal brands are telling their stories and people are going to platforms to see and hear what people are saying. Right. So you actually need people who are former journalists to help you with those jobs. Right. Like, I mean, I remember when I was at Edelman for a time, they were creating an offering called collaborative journalism, which is where they were working with people who were former journalists to create stories on behalf of brands. Right.

Dan Nestle [00:31:06]: That got a lot of flack at the time. I remember it did get a lot of flack.

Abenaa Hayes [00:31:09]: I remember.

Dan Nestle [00:31:10]: Oh, my gosh. Like, talk about, like, trampling on ethics. Yeah.

Abenaa Hayes [00:31:15]: Like, but you know what, but what's interesting is it got a lot of flack then, but you're actually seeing people show up that way now, right? You see, like, companies have their own newsrooms. I think our friend build out.

Dan Nestle [00:31:26]: I think our friend Spencer Ante was like, part of that whole. That whole thing. And he's a perfect example. Like, great journalist, did great work at Edelman. Like, I'm with you on this. Yeah. Anyway, sorry, I didn't mean to.

Abenaa Hayes [00:31:38]: Yeah, yeah, no, but I mean, like, if you look at, like, we. I know a lot of people look at Patagonia for a whole host of reasons, but if you look at their newsroom, they truly have leaned into storytelling in so many different ways. And a lot of the pharma companies I've worked with have done the same. And the data now actually show that people are going to those websites and they're also going to the other place that we all talk about, LinkedIn, to see what people are doing and saying. So you actually need people who are amassed or storyteller. So I'm convinced that if you were to talk to some former journalists who have worked at agency, and probably some of them are actually consulting now, they'll tell you that there's been value in coming over to this side. Yeah, I think it's taken a while to kind of build up the credibility, if you will. I'm journalists leading a lot of the storytelling on behalf of brands, but I think more now than ever, it's, it's needed and it's extremely important.

Dan Nestle [00:32:29]: Well, the trust studies, you know, like Edelman Trust Barometer, what Gallups polls, all this kind of stuff will back you on this, right? That, yeah, you know, consumer trust and audience trust has shifted away from media. And certainly, I wouldn't say that brands are super, super trusted, but they're more trusted than they were 20 years ago and certainly usually more trusted in many cases than media. It depends on which media, but they are. So I think the net effect of having more journalists in PR has been an overall boon to the, to the, to the, to, to the clients of those of those PR companies. And it's, it's also, it's also fascinating how some of these concepts are like, like 20 years old and they're like, I'm coming around again. I think. I don't know if it was, I don't know who originally was talking about this, but it might have been David Meerman Scott in the New rules of marketing PR back in 2002. Maybe we're going back in time. Oh, yeah. I mean, it was some, it was a seminal book for me because, you know, that's the book that introduced me to. I was, I was a copywriter at the time, or I had just started my own business as a copywriter and, and editing, and I liked writing and editing, blah, blah, blah, you know, and I enjoyed technology. But that book kind of pulled things together with a sort of glue that I didn't, didn't know existed before. And like, oh, wait a second, I'm doing content marketing, aren't I? Or, oh, that suggestion to a company to talk about that trending topic and try to get some coverage. That's called newsjacking. Oh, interesting, right? That's what he said. And there's some debate about who coined that term, but I'll say David Meerman Scott did. Anyway, this whole idea of the corporate newsroom started to really take hold then. That's more than 20 years ago. Yeah, then 10 years ago when I was at Edelman, and I can't believe it's already been 10 years, but 10 years ago when I was at Edelman, you know, that was a big thing. The newsroom that Edelman was building for certain clients. And that's where I met Spencer. You know, and really just incredible work was being done and creating, treating each your brand, treating itself as a publisher rather than, rather than as a, as a clearinghouse for advertising and information, like really important stuff. And now here we are 10 years later and, and lo and behold, nobody likes the media or at least the legacy media. Right. I mean, you know, there, there's core groups of people who love it, which automatically guarantees that there are core groups of people that hate it. So, so it's going to be very difficult to square that circle. Now you said something again that's like yes, perfect, 100% ding ding, ding in my head which is this whole idea of the fractured environment, shards of glass and meeting audiences where they are. So given that situation, what should media relations people be doing now and how does that whole function within comms work? Given especially the, the whole fact that, you know, the environment is what it is, trust is what it is. We've seen with Sydney Sweeney that, you know, you gotta be careful everything you say. And that's not the first example. It's, it's the latest of many, many, many, many, you know, and, and then you have technology on top of that. Right. So we haven't still, we haven't started talking about AI, but we will. What, you know, so given all this, what's, what does media relations do now?

Abenaa Hayes [00:36:20]: I mean for me this is where being super focused in strategic matters. Because I mean I think the clear signal is media relations is no longer the be all end all in terms of not only driving awareness but cultivating credibility. Right. You've got to take literally like a multi step approach in order to drive ultimately what I call brand engagement. Right. So it may very well. I mean there's certain, there are certain stories that are perfectly suited for earned and those are obviously the ones that have to hit a really high bar in terms of something that's game changing, making a shift, truly addressing a gap. But then you've got to look at like the other places that Your people are and identify ways to reach them. So it may be that you have, you end up pitching the few journalists who have their own substacks, for example.

Dan Nestle [00:37:15]: Yeah.

Abenaa Hayes [00:37:16]: It could also be reaching out to people who have podcasts. It also actually could mean leveraging content you might have on a social platform like LinkedIn to try to drive like the attention. Right. And like relationship cultivation with an earned reporter. Right. Like the whole days of like have press release will pitch and get coverage long gone. It's a very like focused kind of like micro targeted activity. Yeah, some of it involves like true earned, but the rest of it means looking at different like platforms and channels.

Dan Nestle [00:37:52]: To engage with absolutely 100% on, on the same page. You know, I wrote a piece a while back which is pretty popular called, well, popular by my standards anyway, called, you know, like media relations is dying and we should let it go. But, but the, you know, the, the point of the piece is that is, is almost, you know, what you said, but in slightly different words, that we should be looking at earned attention rather than earned media because it's about, you said, it's an attention economy. And you're right. And what is, you know, what is very obvious to everyone is that audiences are just all over the place. So reaching out to that, to a substack newsletter owner or a journalist on substack, as it were, requires the same effort as reaching out to a journalist from any other publication. So why would you assign that effort to the New York Times versus the substack when you know that the sub stacker is reaching the right people, when you know that that substacker is not only more likely to write about you, but will give you the framing and the fair and the sort of the context that your audience will need. Now they may not, you know, they may have something terrible to say about you, but that's probably not going to be the case if you're reaching out to them in the first place. Right.

Abenaa Hayes [00:39:16]: Yeah.

Dan Nestle [00:39:18]: And it's funny, people always say, well, I don't want to reach out to a journalist because they might say something bad. I'm like, well, if a journalist want to say something bad about, about you, they would do it. They're not, you know, it's not from you reaching out to them. You know, you reaching out to them is, is not gonna, is at worst gonna result in a neutral, neutral kind of mention. But, but anyway, you know, this is the whole thing like where you are apportioning your time and your resources is complicated. And media relations, traditional media Relations folks will say, we need to get, we'll get you in the New York Times, Wall Street Journal with Forbes, whatever. Forbes, not really anymore, but whatever. The top tier Media, Bloomberg and CEOs and leaders love that. They eat that up. Yeah, get me in the Wall Street Journal. So it kind of perpetuates itself, which is dangerous.

Abenaa Hayes [00:40:13]: Yeah, yeah, it totally perpetuates itself. I mean, I still am like, I mean, we always used to say, had the running joke, like you always had the client who wanted to be on Oprah. Right now today it's just like a different platform. But you know, with all of the layoffs and buyouts happening and all of that, like the $64,000 question is one, can you actually get your foot in the door with something? And two, is it actually going to be worthwhile?

Dan Nestle [00:40:39]: Yeah.

Abenaa Hayes [00:40:39]: Right. And that kind of like spotlight play isn't always necessarily the thing that you want.

Dan Nestle [00:40:45]: Yeah. The effort, effort and expense to get there is something that people need to really, really consider very, very carefully and a hundred percent, you know, podcasters and substackers and this whole, these big areas of earned potential for earned. You know, I think it's astounding and outstanding for people to be pursuing these. But you, but the results are different. Like they're not going to get, you're not going to see a. Well, let me, let me, I have to rephrase that in my mind because I was about to say something that is probably wrong, but a comms leader, you know, in a, within a, within a corporate environment, within a, within an organization or on an agency team, you know, there was a time when you'd present your results, your quarterly updates, whatever, to the client or to your internal leadership team and you'd say, look, we got like 6 billion impressions from this story. It went, you know, it was posted to, you know, the, posted to Bloomberg and it got picked up and it got here and you know, 300 billion, the population of Earth saw this, like you're seeing these numbers, right? And then you have to say, well, hey, wait, wait, then why didn't we get a sale? Right? Why didn't we get a sale? But did anybody follow up with us? Did it meet? You know, you don't want to ask those questions, but now we can ask those questions and we can be real realistic and we know that those numbers are bullshit and we can say, you know, yes, it was very important for you to make a comment, you know, in the top tier media on this topic because it is really core to this company, right? And it's a good thing that they found you. But that's not where your business is coming from. Right. You know, now with AI, of course, you know, the more you appear in authoritative media, the better it is for your brand in the long term. But I wonder if that's, if that is sort of, if it's wishful thinking on the part of media relations folks that that means we need to turn up the dial on, on media relations again. I don't know. Have you been hearing anything about this and, or considering or have any of your clients come to you with this idea that. Wait a second, I hear that AI really likes it when you're in the New York Times more than it does when you're someplace else. So get me in the New York Times. Has that ever happened?

Abenaa Hayes [00:43:21]: It hasn't happened yet, but it actually came up in conversation this morning with a former mentee of mine because it was all around like generative search.

Dan Nestle [00:43:29]: Yeah.

Abenaa Hayes [00:43:29]: And how do you ensure that you show up like any LLMs? So while, yes, there may be merit in pursuing an earned strategy that then helps you from a generative perspective, again, I mean, for me it goes back to like, do you actually have the like stuff that's going to get you to earn coverage? Because I mean, like you said, like you could get earned coverage, but it could be neutral or negative. Do you really want that just for the purposes of Claude or chatgpt? I don't think so. Right, right. So again, for me it goes back to like, what is your overall objective a vis a vis earned? Is legacy media the place for you to go to? Are there other ways that you can get the coverage and visibility that you want and, or need and have it amplified in a way that then shows up in the, in the yellow? Yeah, because there's other ways. There's, there's other roads, if you will, to getting into that.

Dan Nestle [00:44:26]: So interesting. And we're early days, I mean we're really early days with GEO with generative engine optimization. And people are looking now to, to PR to say, oh yeah, we need to, we need to boost up the media relations because I got to get into, into the top, into the most authoritative sources, if not in Axios, then I'm not going to get found by, you know, by, look, calm down, you know, let's get, let's get that water, put it on your hair, get out. You know, you're on fire. It's fine. The same practices that you've had for 20 years or 25 years, if you're Doing the right thing for, for writing great content and telling great stories. Remain right. That's the same thing. But clean up your own house first, right? Get your owned into shape. And there's so much you can do on the own side. You know, there was a muck rack study just last week. Two weeks ago.

Abenaa Hayes [00:45:16]: Last week. Yeah.

Dan Nestle [00:45:17]: Right. With the state, like something about how AI is like what percentage of coverage or of mentions or whatever of companies and brands is coming in. AI is coming from what source. And you know, one of the headlines in the report was. And I'm going to butcher it because I don't remember the numbers right off the top of my head, but one of the headlines was like, you know, legacy media or, you know, top tier media is responsible is like, is really, is really responsible for the majority of AI mentions or something like this. And it was a very charitable reading of the chart that accompanied it because, because the chart that accompanied it was very, very clear that the largest. And it was a plurality. There's no majority, but there was a plurality coming from. Oh yeah, it was, sorry, it was earned. Media is the source of most of AI stuff.

Abenaa Hayes [00:46:18]: Right.

Dan Nestle [00:46:20]: And however, the biggest chunk of that was in was on branded business websites, which is not earned for the most part. That's owned. They classified that under earned like corporate blogs and things like this. So I mean, I'm gonna have to go back to the study and muck rack people. If you're, if you're listening, I'm sure that we'll have a discussion because I, because I believe I'm gonna be a, you know, I'm talking to some of those folks at some point. But anyway, the point is, right, that I think we're overemphasizing the significance of, you know, charging headfirst into media relations again when, you know, first of all, we don't know what's going to happen. And second of all, it's clear that corporate content is, is really important for, for, for, for Geo. And the owned content is kind of right up our alleys. That's the storytelling stuff, right? You know, but AI is shifting everything, man. It's. Oh, it is lighting everything on fire. You know, where is your, so where is your kind of stance on AI at the moment? And we'll start general because, you know, I have to, I have to talk about AI in every episode. It's the trending communicator. It's a trend and we talk about the future. Right? So I saw you comment on something recently actually on LinkedIn about AI literacy, which I think is like, critically important. And, and, you know, I think if you're, if you're thinking of like the literacy, literacy rates and regular normal reading, you know, in, in the civilized world, you know, your average person, your average American town is probably like something like 78 or 80% literate, which is terrible, by the way. But, but literacy rates. And you go to like, Japan is 70, is like 98.9% literate, whatever. So those are literacy rates, AI literacy on that same scale. I think as a, as a civilization, we're at about 2%, maybe 3%. I don't know. So what was your take on AI literacy? And why is that a. How do you think that's going to play a big role in your business, but also in comms?

Abenaa Hayes [00:48:43]: So, I mean, I think, I mean, with all the conversations, there have been the hair on fire conversations, there have been the, like, dramatic, paranoid conversations, like after some of the articles from Anthropic CEO in terms of what AI is going to do to jobs and how we operate. And from where I sit, we have always, if you just look over the course of time, there's always been something that's been the disruptor because with change comes disruption. And while there's so much that needs to be done in terms of managing things with like, bias and all of the, like, errors and the terrible things that come out of these LLMs, at the end of the day, it is clearly changing how we operate in so many different ways. Like, if you actually, like, remind people that the things that we use, like Alexa and Siri are all AI, you start to realize these things have been in our lives in different ways. And we're now at, like, an inflection point where either you're going to, like, put your head in your sand and ignore it, or figure out a way to learn it and understand it and integrate it into how you're operating. Right. And if you're really looking to future proof a career, your competency and know how to navigate everything that's coming, you have to actually understand how to use it and also be fluent in it.

Dan Nestle [00:50:02]: Yeah.

Abenaa Hayes [00:50:03]: So because, like, otherwise you're going to be left behind. Like, there's a quote from Anish Raman, who is the chief Economic opportunity officer at LinkedIn, who has basically said that AI is not necessarily going to come for your job. The, the people who will come, the people who are coming for your job are the people who know AI. And that's going to be like, the key differentiator between, like, people who just have decided to stay as Luddites versus those who actually are gonna like become fluent. So to me it's like gonna be like a game changer. And like I literally went from not really using it a whole heck of a lot to now using it in a variety of ways. I had this moment where I was working on one project and I had, you know, all of the things I'm a typical, like Gen Xer. Like I could operate digital and analog. So I was going to do stuff the old analog way of going to read through my notes, going to transcribe something and then I was like, hold on a minute, there are tools that could help me speed this up. So I started integrating it that way in terms of just like outputs for research. And then I started using it to help me like with writing and organizing. So I use it in like I use different platforms for different purposes and it's just helped me become a lot more efficient. I think the benefit of having been this, the Gen X person operating on both sides is I do often give it a side eye from often be like that's not exactly right or is that really the right source? Like, even though like, you know, you made the point about the fact that like people are trying to up their earned coverage so they could get into the LLM. I remember like trying to do a media audit using one of the tools and it gave me all this lovely stuff. And then I started to look at the citations and I kept repeating the same ones.

Dan Nestle [00:51:50]: Yes.

Abenaa Hayes [00:51:51]: So then I was like, oh, the sourcing is limited. So I was. So then I was able to then take it and expand upon it. Right. But you have to be able to know how to do that.

Dan Nestle [00:52:02]: Right. Are you saying we need to have questions, saying we need to have be critical thinkers when we use AI per chance? I don't know.

Abenaa Hayes [00:52:08]: Oh yes, we do. You mean. I know. I mean the thing that like fascinates me is the fact that you've probably seen this too on LinkedIn. A lot of people are talking about you've seen this stuff in the EM dash because AI loves the EM dash. But you've also seen people saying that like people are using AI to draft comments for their LinkedIn posts. And at the end of the day, humans know how humans write and how humans speak. So yeah, you have to be critical.

Dan Nestle [00:52:28]: You know, I don't. Just side note here, the EM dash is one of my favorite things in the world and it broke my heart that that it's associated with AI content and the fact that AI uses the EM dash is a reflection on the fact that so many writers for. For as long as human history has been around, have been using EM dashes. That's why it uses amdash. So let's stop saying the M dash is a sign of AI writing weird. M dash is our right.

Abenaa Hayes [00:52:57]: Yes.

Dan Nestle [00:52:59]: Where it doesn't belong there. Like why I'm dashing that. Or, you know, you see it, you see a piece that has, you know, 14 different instances of M dashing. You know, you need to give it the side eye.

Abenaa Hayes [00:53:13]: Yeah.

Dan Nestle [00:53:13]: But there was a really cool piece, and I should. I should refer you to this when I. After that, I'll send you the link when I can, when I find it. But there was a. I think it was about. From a month or two ago, somebody wrote a piece from the perspective of the EM dash, a legal defense of itself. I love it.

Abenaa Hayes [00:53:30]: Oh, it was great.

Dan Nestle [00:53:31]: In defense of the EM dash. And it's hysterical and brutal and brilliant. Anne Hanley posted it, but it wasn't her piece. What a great, timely thing. Because I spend so much of my time with AI content, I create AI generated content or AI assisted content for myself and for my clients. And one of the first things I do is I have to clean up damn EM dashes. Because society tells me that an EM dash means that it means it's AI AI generated. And okay, in this case, yes, it is AI created and generated. But EM dash is a side part of that. That's not the thing. And what a pain in the neck. Anyway, I'm a big, big fan of M dash, I think.

Abenaa Hayes [00:54:21]: But then what does that tell you, Dan? The technology is trying to sound human.

Dan Nestle [00:54:25]: It is.

Abenaa Hayes [00:54:25]: Ultimately we all. It's. It's about humans. Right. So that then reinforces to me why wonders value in terms of what the technology brings to us in terms of doing our work. But at the end of the day, what we need to deliver needs to be human.

Dan Nestle [00:54:39]: 10,000% on the same page. There's, you know, that's a conversation that keeps happening. Right. What we need to deliver has to be human. And if you don't, I mean, it's your own fault. You think about the calculator, when that first came into existence in the. Whatever was 19, 30s, 40s, 50s, and people started doing math using calculators. If you put yourself in, I don't know, in some particular scenario in that time and place, and, you know, you're working, your accountant comes with your taxes and says, I've done the taxes. 50% or 85% faster than my competitor. And here they are. And you're like, this is great. How'd you do it? I used a calculator. Would you hand the taxes back to that personnel. Nope, sorry. No, not real. Use your hands, pencil and eraser, just like everybody else. You wouldn't do it. Why? So, so why? What's the big like. I get it, you know, you don't. AI has a. Has a. Has a. It's very tempting for users of AI to misrepresent themselves and to, you know, to, to make themselves into something better than they are from a public. And that's, that's deceptive. And I think, you know, we're always going to have to deal with that. But, you know, for us, especially us Gen Xers, it is just a boon. It's a godsend. And I don't have any problems using AI to generate content because I'm on it. It's my lens, it's my work. So maybe it's the fact that we look at it with a side eye, just like you said. I think it's an important factor. You know, you trust but verify or verify and then trust and verify again. But, but it's, there's no question it's disruptive, but it's, it's, it's interesting that we're all, you know, really figuring out how to make use of it. There was something about this, this ongoing perception, and I want to kind of think about this for comps, and you mentioned it, about AI is not going to take your job, but somebody who can use AI is going to take your job. You know that, I mean, that vastly oversimplifies the case. My contention, and this is where I want, I want to, want to hear what you have to say. My contention is that none of this is going to take your job because your job itself is going to be so much different that if you lose your job, it's kind of on you. Like, you have a chance here to build out an incredible job doing the things that you want to do and that you can do. And, you know, there's two sides of this. You're gonna figure out ways to either use AI and enhance everything that you do and do better with your deliverables and maybe figure out new things to do. And that's great. And you're going to go, you're going to grow and you're going to expand, or you're going to try those things and your employer might say, stay in your box, dude. You're a Comms person, stop trying to do data analysis. You don't know what that's about. Stop suggesting insights. We got a team for that, you know, so there's these two different forces that are happening at once. So, you know, where do you see the future of the job? Like, what is, what is the future comms person look like from your perspective, especially with AI? And is there an actual description for that job?

Abenaa Hayes [00:58:15]: That's a really important question because I feel like I don't know if there's a blanket description for the job. And I think this actually came up in one of our mixing board meetings as well. Because I think some of the jobs are going to be tailored to the business and I think the requirements of the comms person are going to be solely tethered to what the business is about, what those priorities are and then what the competencies are, right? So if I think back to my healthcare career, right, I don't think when I started out that I thought that I would have to actually understand data and statistics. But you have to, because if you're telling the stories of clinical trial results, you have to actually know about Kaplan Meier curves. You have to know about like P values, what significance means, what the implications of those data points in terms are on, like, in terms of someone's like, outlook, prognosis, all of these things. So you had to be like, in it to tell the stories, right? You had to become a subject matter expert. Now I did have PhD people on my teams, but the expectation was I knew it. Same goes for when you were coming up with comm strategies. Like, one of the things that my last agency that was kind of ingrained in everyone was they were data analytics first. We all had to understand it. Yes, there was a whole department, but you had to be able to take what the team gave you and apply the insights in a relevant way. So that tells me that for as much as some people think comms experts are very broad generalists, they actually are subject matter experts in so many different ways. And I think it depends on the sector that you're in and the areas of focus. And yes, there are ways things like AI could help us do our jobs in a lot in an easier way. But at the end of the day, I think the future of comms really is on people being like, sector savvy, being able to leverage tools of technology to help them with efficiency, but also ultimately also serve as, like I keep saying, they're like the lighthouses and the sentinels of all organizations. So you have to Be in it. You have to understand it. You have to be that like beam that kind of like sees everything, hears everything, synthesizes it all, and also like sees around the corners.

Dan Nestle [01:00:36]: Such a big job, you know, and, and I know, yeah, sometimes I think we're in our own heads a little bit much with this because we think that of ourselves. But oftentimes our, our corporate leadership teams or whatever don't necessarily share our opinion or high opinions of ourselves. And that's, you know, that's, that's endemic through our, through our field. And it's partly on us to, to show that that's who we are in a non threatening way, by the way, but it's also partly on us to, to sort of push back a little bit and say no, give like, you have to give us a little bit more room here. You know, I mean we, we are like back to what you said earlier. We're storytellers. To do it to, to tell a good story, you need to know the cast and characters, you need to know the arcs, you need to know the details, you need to know what the scenery looks like and you know, everything you need to the plot. I mean, if we were just expected to come in and just, just make something sound pretty or, you know, offer some sort of theoretical opinion about whether something's offensive or not, you know, we might as well just be writing, you know, run, run, Jane, run, see, see spot run, you know, Jack fall down, whatever. That's like, what level of skill do you need? That's one side of it. The other thing that occurred to me is like, you know, if we, with AI, it's tempting for sure to, to, to go and do a lot of research and suddenly feel like, okay, I have a lot in my hands now and I can speak, you know, to a relatively decent degree about this particular topic with very little preparation. But you haven't learned it. You know, you haven't learned that topic in our world as a comms person and a marketer even, like, you spend so much time like you know, next to the business people and to the experts who really know this stuff. You go and you interview and you story mine. Then you do your own research on the side. And then you're like, you ask those PhDs that are all around you whether you're right about this or you're wrong about this. Help me understand this. And you can do all of those things with an LLM, by the way, but you're not going to necessarily get the same quality of answers and certainly not get the new nuance. So, you know, when comms people of the future are, you know, asked to comment on something, I worry that you're going to have people who are just going to be like, just sec. And they're going to check their chat GPT and say, oh yeah, well, okay, here's what I think, right. And it's not going to take long to see through the bullshit of that and that there's no depth. But we need to keep that depth as a core, I think requirement to grow in our profession. That's a, that to me is a big, is a big, like, how are we going to do that? I don't know if you have any ideas about how you're, how we're going to do that. I'm all, I'm all open to them, but it's because I like, I have.

Abenaa Hayes [01:03:33]: I mean that is something that I think is like a key concern for like the industry writ large. Because if you won't, if you weren't kind of coached and trained the way we were, then you can lose that very easily. And I mean, to me, if that becomes the trend, I think you'll start to see it's only when the like, mistakes and the backfires happen will people realize that you actually need to be a lot more purposeful, you need to be a lot smarter and you, you got to do your own research. And I guess some people are just going to learn the mistakes as they go along.

Dan Nestle [01:04:05]: Yeah.

Abenaa Hayes [01:04:06]: But on the flip side of it, that's where I am like absolutely convinced. It's like people like you and I still have value and merit in the business because we've grown up and come up in it with a totally different lens. Right. And the only way the next generation is going to learn is if they have like a line of sight in terms of the competencies that like we, we're, we came up with because yeah, it's only going to get, the world is going to get trickier and it's going to become easier to rely on these tools. So you got to figure out a way to make sure like you said, like the bullshit detector is like totally clear, stable and working.

Dan Nestle [01:04:42]: People need to learn how to answer the question why? All the time. Like why? Because that's, that's what people are going to ask you as, as you get, as you get more and more senior in your career or you, you, you proceed along a path. Your ability to answer the question why? And then, then at thereafter how you know will determine your success, success or failure. And if you have to go running to, you know, if your knowledge is not deep enough, you're just, you're going to be exposed very, very fast because all it takes is two more wise and you're done. So, I don't know, it's. I, I'll get off the soapbox. I can't believe we've been talking for a long time. So let's. I know we gotta bring this home. And there was so much more I wanted to ask you about. I mean, we're in the mixing board together and we, you know, we, we've. We run in certain circles and, you know, we know same people, but we'll put that for another time. I think that, you know, if anybody is gonna ask anyone about the way that we should consider inclusion and impact in this world today, or certainly as it comes professional, and then, like, what those, you know, what the broader implications of these, of what's happening around us in society and technology. If anybody's going to ask anyone around about that, I, they would do. I mean, they would do. The best job that they could possibly do would be to reach out to Abby Hayes. I mean, you know, you, you really have a. Have a very, A very solid understanding of everything that's going on around us. And, and, you know, you're. Your history and your awards and your client base and everything kind of, kind of are proof in the. Proof's in the pudding, as they say. That said, you know, do you have any, like, anything we haven't talked about, any kind of last words of wisdom that you want to impart to our audiences, to your listeners?

Abenaa Hayes [01:06:32]: I mean, I think there's something that you just started talking about that I think is, like, really important and is one of the reasons that, like, I continue to do this work. And one of the reasons I think I've been successful, which is one, having a sense of curiosity, which I think then is why people need to start asking, like, questions around, like, why. Because, like, the why can get you to so many different places, right? The why helps you figure out what people's objectives are, what their needs are. The why helps you figure out what your strategy is, but the why also helps you figure out, like, what matters to the people that you're trying to reach. And so I don't think. I think that's like, something that people need to focus on and continue to cultivate because it will take you places that you may not realize, but it will also actually help save and protect you from any potential, like, issue or crisis that could come Your way.

Dan Nestle [01:07:27]: Curiosity, curiosity. Brand.

Abenaa Hayes [01:07:30]: You know all about the curiosity.

Dan Nestle [01:07:32]: Relentless curiosity, unearthly curiosity. Just keep digging in, man. Just like keep digging, read a lot, you know, don't just rely on the little keyboard here. Get your brain food, go touch grass. But be curious. I can't, you know, that's my mantra. Well, on that note, everybody out there, if you want to find Abby again, it's abena Hayes on LinkedIn and her name will be spelled properly in the episode title, but you can find her on LinkedIn. You can find her at elizaconsulting.co not.com and you could find her on Instagram @LSA consulting. One word and any place else that I missed. Is that the most of it? I think that's it. Yeah, we're always on LinkedIn. I mean, LinkedIn is place to be. And if you're in comms, you know, if you are a communicator, and most of you, many of you probably are, but join the mixing board, please. Like go reach, reach out to mix. Look up mixing board. Great investment for your career, for your network and for your friendships and for just your knowledge. So check out mixing board. And you know, because there's a lot of choices for professional organizations out there. I'm not being paid to say this at all, although I should probably reach out to somebody afterwards. But anyway, like go to mixing board and you know, you'll run into me and me and Abby at those events in New York for sure. And yeah, after beyond that, Abby, this has been a long awaited pleasure, but a pleasure and a pleasure nonetheless, should say nonetheless. But it has been an absolute pleasure and I'm so glad you came on the show.

Abenaa Hayes [01:09:11]: Thank you. I appreciate it. This was such a great chat. I really, really appreciate it.

Dan Nestle [01:09:14]: Thank you. Come back anytime. Bye now.

Abenaa Hayes [01:09:17]: Alrighty. Thank you.

Dan Nestle [01:09:25]: Thanks for taking the time to listen in on today's conversation. If you enjoyed it, please be sure to subscribe through the podcast player of your choice. Share with your friends and colleagues and leave me a review. Five stars would be preferred, but it's up to you. Do you have ideas for future guests or you want to be on the show? Let me know@dantrendingcommunicator.com thanks again for listening to the trending communicator, Sam.