PR is a Leadership Strategy - with Kristel Valaydon

Dan Nestle [0:00 - 2:30]: Welcome or welcome back to the trending Communicator. I'm your host, Dan Nestle. Here on the show we spend a lot of time, well, maybe all of our time talking about the future of communications. Not telecommunications and not how to improve your allocution type of communications, but capital C communications, a collection of disciplines that includes, you know, depending on who you talk to, corporate communications, marketing, communications, brand communications, crisis communications, executive communications, public affairs, public relations, pr, investor relations, ir, government relations, internal or employee communications. And actually, believe it or not, the list keeps going on. Now, not every company needs all of these and even fewer need them all at once. But they all need to tell their stories in the right places, at the right times, to the right audiences to build trust, authority and influence. It's a lot. And it should be obvious that success at all of these things requires alignment and integration with business strategy. I'm sure you've heard time and time again that comms needs to partner with business and keep business front and center in our work. I probably say stuff like this sometimes, but shouldn't it just be a given? I mean, shouldn't comms just be as integral to strategy as marketing, sales, finance and even hr? Well, my guest today will tell you that yes, it is a given. And in fact, comms is itself a leadership strategy. Kristel Valaydon is the founder of KV Communications and over 25 years she's developed what she calls the five spheres of connection framework. She's been testing this approach with ambitious founders and forward thinking teams. The kind of leaders trying to shift minds, models and markets while building genuine communities around their mission. Her basic premise, that most of what we call communications is really just broadcasting. She positions PR as a business strategy and not a marketing function. And she's not theorizing from the sidelines. She's contributing to inclusive design conversations, judging business awards and working hands on with businesses to try to balance growth with meaningful impact. So today I want to dig into this idea that communications is a leadership strategy, not just a support function. Because if she's right, then maybe we've been thinking about our roles all wrong. So let's get into it with Kristel Kristel. Here you are welcome. 

Kristel Valaydon [2:31 - 2:47]: Thank you so much for that great intro. That was very kind and just excited to be able to talk about this with someone that I've absolutely loved hearing your views on PR and we've had many conversations over. So yes, it'll be wonderful to dig in. 

Dan Nestle [2:47 - 4:42]: It's going to be great to dig in. I should clarify, I gave the laundry List of all the different parts of comms on the upfront. And sometimes I complain when people say, oh, you mean pr, you know, because PR, to me is. Is really that media relations, external relations part of this. That is, you know, trying to earn media and earn, well, attention out there. It's just a little bit of a. It's just a small part of this. But I realize that there is a, A vocabulary question there, and I'm not going to hold my, like, put a line in the sand around calling saying comms or pr, especially because, you know, from the uk, often the, the word that the term PR is just used to just blanket describe the comms discipline. And I know that's where you come from, so I won't get on my. No, it's not just pr, it's comms. High horse, because frankly, it doesn't really matter to anybody anyway. But I will say that, you know, the work that you're doing in describing or the way that you just kind of described to me back when we first started talking about like, PR is a leadership strategy was just something I had never heard before. You know, I hear aspirational things about like, well, PR needs to be part of the strategy, but it's, you know, your approach is interesting and we want to hear about it now before we actually get into it. I just want to give everybody that, that kind of usual, how do you know this amazing person? Little background. And once again, it comes down to Marc Shaffer and the Uprising. I've talked about that before. We Met October of 24. I think it was at the Uprising. The best conference that anybody could ever. Conference is a terrible way to call it. The best meeting of minds. Retreat, think tank in the woods. 

Kristel Valaydon [4:42 - 4:43]: Yes. 

Dan Nestle [4:43 - 5:41]: That anybody could ever hope to go for. So plug for Mark and the Uprising. Please go. But I'll tell you, it has changed my life in so many ways. And now we're looking at one of the ways in which it changed my life by associating me with Kristel, whom, by the way, I've been calling Kristel for too long. And now I know it's Cristel, so I've been talking too long. Kristel, how's it going? What's happening? And, you know, let's talk about you and where, you know, you have such a fascinating career. I love the way that you talk about your focus on the. The rebels or trying to create rebels in the PR industry. And that's. That's exactly what I love. What I love about what we do, all try to do. And you know you've been working with various unique kinds of clients since you left the agency world and corporate world. Just get a brief overview of your background, who you are and what brings you to us today. 

Kristel Valaydon [5:43 - 6:14]: Absolutely. I would also say shout out to Mark Schaefer's uprising. Loved our conversations and just where we feel the future of business is going and why. This conversation, especially from a PR industry perspective, I feel is just so important with what's going on in the world. How this all started, I suppose is very much a case of I left agency quite defeated and deflated, thinking there's got to be a better way. 

Dan Nestle [6:14 - 6:15]: How could that happen? 

Kristel Valaydon [6:16 - 6:16]: How. 

Dan Nestle [6:17 - 6:18]: Never heard that before. 

Kristel Valaydon [6:20 - 9:35]: It was just part rage, really, and part dare of. I'm looking at how we are using PR as, um, a function, as it were, at the time. I, you know, I, my, my background is I actually went to university to study pr. So in a way, when we're talking about the origin and what it means, I'm going back to my uni days now, which I never thought I would do. Um, but I came out into the real world of business and an agency and I just noticed for pretty much the duration it was media relations. It was, it was very much focused on celebrity. I'm showing my age now, but as you're going into the early 40s, it's like it had to have a celebrity on it for, for it to mean any. Anything. And consequently, I'm thinking, where's the impact? What are we doing? How are we working like this? But then, interestingly, I started working with smaller boutiques, agencies, which I absolutely loved because you start becoming more involved in the business side of things. I didn't have that with the larger agencies and agency that I worked at, which I didn't really get on with at all. I was far more curious. I was just too inquisitive. I wanted to know what works. If I'm going to spend a lot of time, blood, sweat and tears, as teams do, trying to get the client what they need and make them look good, I want to know what the impact is. So we're having those business conversations and discovering actually no one's measuring this. How are we measuring this? And as it turns out, what benefits are we giving the clients here? And there's still confusion and we're still having the same conversations that we had throughout my entire career. Even now, we don't understand why, what PR is, we don't understand what the value is. I get lots of media coverage. I still don't know what it is. And that seems to be all they focus on in terms of agency. And we're seeing, even with the development of AI and this rapid sort of era that we're in now, all agencies are really talking about is how media relations can be AI friendly. And we're looking at AI search. And you and I have had this conversation so often, it's like it's a fifth of media relations is a fifth. Fifth of what we do. A fifth when I look at it. Yeah. And the five spheres came out after I knew when I started KV Comms, I really wanted to learn more. I really wanted to come up with a solution for better business and also making sure that we're delivering that impact. And it was a tried and tested approach, to be honest. Had no aspirations to be a business owner, but it was listening to those clients and thinking, what is it that we need to achieve here? And really sensing their frustrations, their frustrations in what they have to deal with, how they have to sort of break through markets. And like I said, you know, we call them rebels and misfits, but it's a term of endearment. They don't call themselves that at all, but they're so creative and innovative and they are trying something completely different. And that's what I love about them. That's what I did in my business. I looked at, hang on a second. We don't have to focus on the traditional retainers, we don't have to look at metrics. Like I will absolutely refuse aves as a measurement. 

Dan Nestle [9:35 - 9:38]: That's a, that's a whole conversation ave. 

Kristel Valaydon [9:38 - 10:30]: I'm sure that will come up, we'll get back to it and. But we. Looking at them, I realized it was more consultative. It was, it was a blend of consultant strategy and then also implementation that I was offering because I really wanted that. I call it sleeves up, hands on approach. You know, if I'm going to come up with strategy, I want to empower that client to understand what we're doing. There's full transparency there. And then equally I want to make sure it works. And then I always said It'll take me 10 years to figure this out, leave me alone. And then soon enough it was like, right, I've actually come up with this framework like 14 years, we're coming into 15 years of now launching it. But it will be a case of, I think this will bring clarity and it will really help businesses in this new era that we're, we're in. And that's where it sort of like came from. 

Dan Nestle [10:31 - 11:29]: They absolutely need that clarity too. I mean, you said that when you talk about your clients and you know, the rebels and the misfits, every one of the things about being in PR and comms is people talk about their customers and their clients willy nilly and, and I think it's hard for the lay people out there to really understand what we mean by that because sometimes your clients are like the Chief communications officer or the Director of communications. Like sometimes it really does boil down to a person within an organization. Sometimes it's the CEO, depending on the size of the company and how savvy that person is and so on. Sometimes hr, who knows? I feel bad for those who's clients are hr. I'm just kidding. We love hr. We love internal. That said, like who are your clients? Are they are, are they comms people? Are they business people? Are they both? Where's, where's your, your sweet spot? 

Kristel Valaydon [11:29 - 12:51]: Yeah, it really interesting when we're talking about the proposition as business, you know, really have that Persona, that target market. Who is it that you're reaching to? I just realized it is actually the values of who they are. And for me, when I say rebel and misfits and again I say that as a term and indifferent, we are talking about the founders, the owners, the entrepreneurs and the intrapreneurs. So it's a certain level in the business that I work with best because I'm the fixer. I'm going to come in and help you fix those challenges that you're facing. We're not working with CEOs and CMOs of, of large, large brands, but maybe the teams within that organization or maybe an organization with several brands underneath. And I love a good underdog story. So it's the dark horse that's probably overlooked that's trying to build its momentum and really break out here. And so for me, whether you're at startup or whether or not you're within that organization, it really is that pain point that you're at. Where are you sitting and what do you need to achieve? And for them it really is, it's either breakout, it's getting to the next level. It could be as well for the startup. It could be they just need to get investment, really need to launch or scale or grow. 

Dan Nestle [12:52 - 15:19]: It's interesting because a lot of, I think a lot of bigger agencies and even some, some seasoned PR pros out there, you know, tend to be in this kind of maintenance mode with their customers and clients and that's who they serve best. And I'm not saying this is, I'm not making a value judgment. I just, I think that there is that whole swath of, of the, of the client base and the customer base that is really just like, we just want to maintain our reputation or, or, or we just want media coverage and that's all we ever want from you. And that creates one set of deliverables. And you can do that, and I'm sure you can make a good living at it. But I'm of the mind that I would much rather be doing what you do, working with the rebels, working with the innovators, people who understand that we used to put things in silos and buckets, but now there's. Either the silos have burned down and the buckets have a lot of holes in them, or it's just a faulty way to think of things anyway, partly because that's just the nature of business now, but it's also because of the advent of AI. And if you're not thinking about how those traditional boxes that we would put ourselves in in the past and the past was just very recent and actually the past is present now for many, many companies, probably for the majority of people. But if you're focused on those boxes, AI is such a disruptor, it's changing. There's a lot of discussion about this and people are struggling with how do we implement. I think it definitely goes far, far beyond that. AI. My friend Chris Perry recently said, told me, he said something that really resonated with me. He said, it's like having a PhD in your pocket. And when you have, when every employee has a PhD in your pocket, how does that really, how does that support an organization that is set in like, very fixed paths and ways? Like there's. You're missing so much and the rebels get it. 

Kristel Valaydon [15:20 - 16:47]: I think this has happened before. This has started way before AI. And you've had a brilliant guest on your podcast, Ginny Dietrich, who for me, I absolutely am so thankful for the peso model to be able to explain this to clients in terms of, we've evolved in terms of media, how it all works and what those outputs are now, and really having to say to clients, especially when I started KB Comms, to be able to say more bluntly and freely, it's not going to work. Yeah. I'm not going to sit here and be a media hits horse for you at the end of what, what you want and where you want to see the traction and the results could be somewhere different. So let's explore that. And I think we've seen the breakdown of media, we've seen the inefficiency. We've seen media breakdown in terms of trust and particularly consumer trust. But then also we've seen the decline of media. You know, we used to put, we used to have. It's so much more fractional and siloed now to where those outputs are. And then add in the fact that yes, we've got technology and this is, you know, pandemic of loneliness. So even though we're so much more connected, we're so inherently lonely. It's just this is how consumers are right now. 

Dan Nestle [16:47 - 18:50]: It is really worse. It's getting worse. And you know, your focus on community is probably one of the solves for that. And you know, and again, we'll get to that. I just want something you said was really, was hit something with me which was that the, you know, the media has lost, is losing power or losing relevance or whatever. I'm paraphrasing, it's not exactly what you said, but the, it's interesting because this whole, this disruption and the audience change has, has disintermediate, has disintermed intermediate that disintermediated the media from which, you know, which is wild because it's the same root word, but they, this intermediated the media from, from discourse in so many ways. And yet there are some more traditional media vehicles, media platforms and properties that are seeing if they, if they see it, if they know what they're doing, a renewed opportunity to increase their relevance and topple or at least kind of have people honestly rethink what tier 1, top tier those media hit highs really mean. And I'm referring to trades and popular newsletters and things like this that have very fixed and niche audiences and have been innovating trades, for example, are doing a lot more multimedia and podcasts and just, just scrappy and you know, low budget, trying to do what they can do. And I think the, the wheel is turning a little bit more where, you know, we need to be helping our clients to understand that, you know, just because it's, it's the, the pipe fitter's journal or whatever it is, you know, that may be far more valuable to you than, than a front page on the Wall Street Journal. 

Kristel Valaydon [18:51 - 21:20]: We used to look at media, didn't we, in terms of a source of news. And they would be looking at, it would be reporting. It would be reporting what's outside and sending it through to us through their channels. And now when I see, when I look at different media companies, when you look at Something like Time magazine, they're full on. On brand. What is this brand about? It's about trust and how they're going about to develop that brand so that they're more appealing to advertisers or, you know, the very fact that they're bucking the trend. They haven't done the PA wall option, they're making it more open, so then you've got more viral campaigns that can come through with shared content. So they're really trying to think about innovative ways to make themselves more relevant. When I look at. It was really interesting, actually looking more at insights and research and how media companies are really embracing this. Politico Will and the ft, for example, if you think about subscription costs to media now and you're spending £500 for financial, financial times for membership, but they're looking at how they can be more applicable and more relevant to their readers and really trying to nurture that. You look at the Daily Telegraph, somebody shared on, it was on LinkedIn, it was brilliant. It was this massive screen in front of the newsroom and they were tracking sort of what the readership trends would be so that then they can put the reporting, put it back into the reporting, because they know that those clicks are going to be relevant for their readers. So what's going to be relevant? So they're looking to their readers to look at what the content should be. And that's something that blows my mind. And again, when you've got something like Politico, when I was listening to their case study, I thought it was fascinating in the sense of, well, how we're not only making sure that we've, we're collecting these thought leaders, but then also what do we do next in terms of making positive change outside in that world, not just listening to voices, but then how do we, how do we activate that? And so it's got a different head on it and it's going to change. But like you said, it's the difference of how it's working. We're watching journalists now move to substack. Maybe that's where they can write more freely and write what they want. And it'll be really interesting to see how, like you said, the podcasts and what people are going to consume now and where they're going to get their news. It's so much more fragmented. 

Dan Nestle [21:21 - 25:11]: I know this is, this is taking us a little off track and I'm going to get to the, to the, to the spheres very shortly, I promise. But, but, but it's really interesting Substack situation. You know, I think it's connected to exactly what you're saying about the larger media organizations becoming metric savvy and really focusing in, on, on, okay, what is the customer? What are their readers want? Because sometimes the readers want the wrong things. You know, when you're, when you're talking about news, if you're talking about developing a product, you know, you're talking about making a better, better mousetrap, what, whatever. And you want to understand what the customers want there. You want to hear in real time. Now this is messy or this is, you know, this. I don't use this really well, I don't think you necessarily want to hear that. With news, maybe in general, like with non news content, you want to kind of work that in. But with reporting, it's supposed to be reporting and if you pay too close attention to what the readers want on a minute by minute basis, you're running into essentially becoming a populist organization and you're going to shift, you're going to shift with the waves of opinion and what do you stand for? So substack has become this, you know, the zone where, yes, those, those reporters, especially investigative reporters or feature writers who, you know, have, have, have longer stories to tell, bigger and more provocative points of view in terms of news and then in terms of just people who are creators or talking about business, et cetera, it is a free zone for them to talk about whatever they want to talk about or write about. It's no surprise that many of the more serious journalists and writers have moved there because they get to listen to what they think or follow what they think is the right path for news. They don't have to worry about the populist view now. Eventually, are they going to become slaves to their, to their mailing lists and to their readers? Who knows? I mean, you know, it kind of, I think it goes, it comes and goes in cycles. But I'm really curious about it. I'm on substack. I like it and you know, I get a lot of great feedback from it. But we didn't come here to talk about that necessarily. You have a very, you mentioned working with rebels and misfits. I like that. And I'm sure that shaped the way that you think about how you deliver the best, most business relevant strategic communications services to them. But more than I think anything else, it's informed your model, your framework. The five spheres is the five spheres of connection. Is that right? Yeah, the five spheres of connection. And you know, I was fascinated by this. You had said to me earlier, you weren't sure if it's necessarily, you know, original 100 original thinking, or if it's. If it's also being used by other. Similar things are being used by other, other agencies or other professionals. And that's fine, right? I mean, that's, that means you're onto something. But what is your take on this? What are the five spheres? Let's go through them one by one, let's talk about it and, and go from there. So the five spheres of connection moves businesses beyond traditional tactics. How does it do that? 

Kristel Valaydon [25:12 - 29:48]: So. Well, it goes back to the fact, I mean, just, just to thread previous conversation in the traditional way of PR is just not working. It won't work. And sometimes when you are somebody that's trying to perhaps challenge the status quo in what you're trying to do, you're going to have to find a different path. And for me, there's so much pressure on founders and leaders and even within larger organizations, those team leaders, you can't really drive change by yourself. You need, you need a team, you need a tribe, you need a community around you to help break through those doors and also who share your vision. It's better in numbers. So really, the comms aspect for me is where I look at PR as a. I almost call it PR as a business strategy because you'll have that business framework. Of course you will. You know how it works, the operations, the insights, the sales. You look at then the original definition of pr, of it's about reputation, it's about what you say, what you do, and what others say about you. And it's about connecting with your stakeholder audiences. And it's those stakeholder audiences which will ultimately be that community around your business. And we talk about community in different ways, especially with the growth of community and brands. And I'll make that differentiation. But the way that I see community in this space, when I say we're creating community, is that we are breaking down the silos. Because ultimately the way that the world has changed, comms has changed. We do need more unity. And we've been so fractioned and siloed and sort of divided in our roles because as you said earlier, internal comms is our whole profession in itself. Media relations is a whole business model in itself. Local community, trade relations, you could all do these things, things quite separately on your own. But when I go in and I'm speaking to clients, it makes me realize how they're not taking advantage and they're not maximizing or optimizing the resources that they have right there in front of them. And they might not be a big organization, but whether you're the big organization or a small startup, you will have these five spheres that you could activate to help you get your message across. And it would just help that mission that you're trying to achieve with your business flow even smoother. Because otherwise you are trying to separate your messaging across five groups. Just take that one group, that campaign that you're doing, and just tailor it, just tell it, make it easier for yourself. So the five spheres for me, and trying to sort of. How does it start? It really was when I say there's nothing original. It's not so much that the framing of it will be applicable to the clients that I'm speaking to, but we know this as comms professionals, and it's just that aha moment of how we've thread it together. And I suppose it'll always be in the style and the brand of who's doing it. That's what makes it different. But I look at the five spheres and I'll say to the client, and the great thing is having done some new business pitches where they've just gone. No one's explained it to us like this before already. We're sort of like streamlining the confusion and the clarity. But it starts with the visionary. It starts with that, that leader. What was their mission? What are they trying to achieve? And we talk about all different ways of trying to communicate that story and who they need to communicate that. And we could break that down further, but, you know, we talk about, don't read the brand hero, the hero story, the journey. What. What is it that they saw a gap in the market? Why is it so important to them? Why is it so important to everybody else? And it really is. How do we. We need them at the top because ultimately that's who everyone's buying into. And statistically you can see that. I think it was fascinating to me. I think it was Hafsa that said how 77% of consumers will want to see the founder at the top of the company because they want to buy into their values and they want to see that leader as visible to what they communicate. They buy into that. And you look at companies like Patagonia and you see the values that are in there. Sure. Why is that so effective? 

Dan Nestle [29:49 - 30:05]: Does the same thing apply to, like, Fortune 500 companies, like massive, huge companies where they, you know, the founder is long since gone and. And, you know, and so much M and A or different changes and so it does CEO replace founder in that. 

Kristel Valaydon [30:05 - 31:56]: In that respect, I again, because of who I tend to work with, of team leader, I think you still have the brand, if anything, whoever's talking about it, if it's aligned to the brand and the company culture and the values, you can still show its relevancy. It's just the department of how it's doing it that's the switch. You know, we're doing it because we're in this department, we're in research. You know, this is how we make things happen. We're in production, we're in, you know, manufacturing, whatever it might be. This is how we're making that business vision happen. And then we go on to the second sort of sphere, as I call it, which is trailblazers. And they're your team, your immediate team. This is super important because again, aligning to wise is so relevant to get hold of. Ultimately you're looking at high performing teams. You want to nurture that. It's as simple as, and if they don't get your vision and they don't understand what you're doing, it's talent retention, isn't it? It's making sure that you've got the best performing team possible and they really are enthusiastic about what they're doing and it's making sure that they're in alignment and they're motivated in helping you achieve that goal. And then we go on to, I call them champions, but they're really the advocates. And it could be, if it's within a small company, it could be suppliers, it could be local community, it could be trade, trade in the industry, for example. And then if it's within a larger organization, I would say it's other divisions within the company and your senior stakeholders, I keep them separate because ultimately they're the ones that are going to be advocating you for you in different conversations. 

Dan Nestle [31:58 - 32:40]: So hang on just a moment. So we've got, so far we've got three of the spheres. We've got visionaries, the visionary visionaries, the Trailblazers and the champions. And the, to me, when you said champions, I, I just thought of the sales teams like you know, right off the bat, which makes a lot of sense in a large, in a large organization. But maybe you'll get to this later. But what's the connection between the different spheres? Like how do they interconnect with one another? Where does it go from visionaries? What's the flow of operations, process transformation, message from visionaries to trailblazers, champions, etc. Is that something you'll get to or. 

Kristel Valaydon [32:41 - 34:06]: Yeah, when we get to. I mean that's the interesting thing, I think for me, when I'm looking at the brief, I will ask them, do they already have these in place? How can we optimize this? And when I look at the work that we're doing, how can I then tweak the work that we're doing to include them in the process? And sometimes it could be just really simply repurposing that content, that messaging that, making sure we're getting more collaboration, partnerships, strengthening what we're doing, utilizing those resources. I mean we'll take local communities, community for one, which is absolutely vital. Lots of businesses might think, oh, if I just got media coverage, everyone would flock to my doors. And then they forget that they're part of maybe another organization as part of their rates and their rent. So the business improvement districts that we have, you're paying already to be part of that. They have a whole marketing team of customers that are right in your area and yet it always is the low hanging fruit that they always forget of. Oh, I didn't even think to align myself with them. I didn't even think to start having that conversation. We pay and we send them some information, but we don't really think about what resources have we got that we could piggyback on to make that more effective. 

Dan Nestle [34:06 - 34:27]: Okay, so by being aware of the different spheres is your first foray into understanding whether or not you are taking advantage or fulfilling the needs of each of those spheres of communication. I suppose I'm not going to interrupt anymore. We've got two more spheres to go. Right. So we've talked about, talked about visionaries, trailblazers, champions, what's next? 

Kristel Valaydon [34:28 - 35:45]: Discoverers. So they're your customers, your early adopters, because people forget that PR does deal directly. We've been doing events for years with customers and so it is a case. But we're in the age of community and this is the other side of community that we're talking, talking about and how important community is for larger organizations, brands, but also listening to your, your customers on other community platforms and making sure that you're understanding their view of your brand or problems that you're trying to solve and how you're interacting with them. I find this fascinating. And again, shout out to Mark Schaefer who eloquently puts this all together in belonging to the brand as power of community. I look at all of the reasons why you would have a community. I personally look at community and think this could go One of two ways we could take something that is really interesting and ruin it completely with what we need to do here. Pretty much like social marketers just took hold of social at the very beginning and just considered it a broadcasting platform. And I had to go in and teach my hold workshops to say how to be more social in social media. 

Dan Nestle [35:46 - 35:47]: It's in the title, it's in the name. 

Kristel Valaydon [35:48 - 37:12]: Exactly. And the same with community. It's not another space to corral your customers in and just keep them there entertained. The fact that you can do something so much more. We've got co creation, we've got research and insights. And I think for me that that's my passion point. I love seeing, you know, we have all of this data at hand here. We really. This is one of the best things about community that I think that still isn't being utilized enough when people talk about community. But again, I'm speaking to research, research colleagues and insights and I think in terms of business, they just think, well, we just want the stats. But they don't think about nurturing these people that are obviously fans in order to go that extra mile to give them the feedback. How do we nurture that? Like how do we move forward with that? And then you're watching more D2C brands who are trying to solve problems and they're working with that community. So I mean, you know, women's health is a passion point for me. And again, you're watching brands that are saying, well, we co create products that we're doing everything from taste, understanding what the problems we need to solve and going from there. So yes, it's been fascinating to see and there's loads of things that we could do with that, it seems to. 

Dan Nestle [37:12 - 37:17]: Me, and I promised I wouldn't interrupt and here I am. You can't trust me? Can't trust me. Kristel? 

Kristel Valaydon [37:19 - 37:20]: Yeah, go for. 

Dan Nestle [37:20 - 38:27]: It just dawned on me that, that I don't know why it dawned on me now, but there's a fundamental break or diff or dissonance in the way that we talk about community and other teams or companies or people kind of define community. And I like what you're saying about kind of bringing it, how you're defining what communities are in the context of comms and in the context of the spheres. But I think that so many out there just think of, okay, when they hear the word community, they think audience we can take for granted. Right? They think it's an audience. They don't understand that it is an organic kind of series of audiences Perhaps it's people, it's not an audience. And it is absolutely the opposite of something you can take for granted. It requires an investment of emotion and relationships. That's. That's such a big thing. I know, but that's. That occurred to me and I wanted to bring that up, see what you thought. 

Kristel Valaydon [38:28 - 39:30]: Well, also not only take it for granted, but also remember why they're there. They, if they really are fans of that company or that brand. For me, they're looking for that experience and they're looking for that connection. They want to talk to other members, they want to talk to people. Not only this is the interesting thing, side, sidetrack here. But when I listen to brands talk about community and how they want to. They're so solid in their own brand identity, they're looking at how to work with community, to build culture, like actually to, to drive culture. And I think that I remember thinking, wow, that's such an ask. But it isn't. It isn't. Not possible. But when I think about the experience of why people want to join community, another fear factor here is of not only just treating it as an audience, but not giving the customer the experience that they're here for. And that means that goes outside of the marketing department. 

Dan Nestle [39:31 - 39:32]: Oh, for sure. 

Kristel Valaydon [39:32 - 39:49]: Imagine a fashion brand is having like community and insights. Well, you have to bring in designers, you have to bring in, you know, manufacturing so that they understand the process, they want to get involved. Little things like these elements that can just heighten the experience. Not, not have to, but just creative. 

Dan Nestle [39:49 - 41:00]: Way of thinking of how it becomes an identity. You know, it becomes a key part of your identity. And you can't even the smallest kind of sense that you're not respecting the identity is. Goes deep into the emotional center of your customers and the experiential center. You know, if you're treating them just as, okay, you're getting emails and you've bought our products and therefore you're a fan and wonderful. Thank you. Thank you for your work. Go on and please buy the next thing. You're not treating them like you're not recognizing the part of themselves that they have decided they want to align with you. And that's a real gift that, you know, it would be such a huge. And it is often a huge mistake to take that for. To not give that value or to not appreciate that gift and not reciprocate. Back on track. Sorry. Apologize. All right, so we've got, we've got visionaries, Trailblazers, Champions, Discoverers, 5th Sphere, Pathfinders, and that is where Pathfinders. 

Kristel Valaydon [41:00 - 42:40]: Yeah, that's where it's the external. It's exactly. We talk about media, but we're also looking at all of the other ways. Your sponsors, your partnerships, your other communities, social media communities. You're looking at Reddit, you're looking at discord, you're looking at substack podcasts and influencers, as you know, have actually blown up. So if you think about all these popular outlets that you can, that will expand your, your reach, then of course, yeah, have to engage with them. But like I said, it's one of the spheres, of course. And ultimately it's a case of what do we prioritize. So really the whole plan with the five spheres is to give the clients like an overlay over their business strategy to go, right, what are we prioritizing? What have you got? What do we need to develop in that timeline? And it really is a long term approach because ultimately the short hits of media relations, it's just not enough. If you're trying to build your brand, your trust, your credibility and all the things of authenticity and connection that any business is having to face right now, the pressure is on to be so much more than just a service or a deliverable. They're now being asked to be, oh well, you have to be my source of leadership, community and stability in a world that's gone upside down, topsy turvy customers are needing that. According to Edelman's trust reporter, for sure that's what they're looking at. So the pressure's on. 

Dan Nestle [42:41 - 44:46]: Yeah, they can't figure out how to get there and thankfully they can't because that's why we have jobs and we have clients, because we think we know how to get there. It's interesting, I was thinking about the peso model as you're talking about this, not because it's similar, just as it, because of, because you mentioned it, but also because, you know, when you look at something like the peso model, which is paid, earned, shared and owned types of media, you know, and it's a very convenient tool or way to evaluate what you're doing and understand where you need to turn up the activity and the tactics, which parts are more relevant to your strategy than not where you should be measuring, et cetera, et cetera, and you're clearly not going to get there just by remembering, oh, paid, earned, shared, owned, that's just the top level that breaks things down into digestible pieces and gives you the capabilities to make decisions better. Now when you look at the five spheres. It just seemed to me that you have your peso model as your kind of activation side of things in many ways. If you're looking at, okay, am I checking the boxes for visionaries, trailblazers, champions, discoverers, pathfinders, you know, then if I understand what, that what's most important there, then I can then apply the peso model to activate my communications for them. You know, they work hand in hand in some ways. Tell me how that works. And I mean, I know, I know you didn't build it for the peso model, but how does it interact with that kind of activation side? Or, you know what, let's go there first. So tell me, because I see like, maybe I'm not quite getting it with the way that it works with Peso. So start there and then there's a couple questions I want to ask about that. 

Kristel Valaydon [44:46 - 45:53]: Well, I'll definitely say that Peso was, you know, obviously that development, it just has influenced PR and comms, hasn't it? It just has made it so much easier. And I think that what it's done is it's opened up the fact that we have far more channels to juggle now and navigate through. When I look at, I wouldn't say it's all through to align it just to the pace I marked model would say we're aligning it to content. And I think where I look at things, it's more how are we going to interact? And you could be much more creative and, and look at who it is that we're trying to reach and how we do it. I'm not going to limit it to just content because I do think that when you're looking at trailblazers and you're looking at the teams, it's not, you're not going to send them just a memo, you know, it's how you get them engaged. So it could be, it could be, it could also. 

Dan Nestle [45:53 - 46:39]: I was thinking of it more like, just more as, from the point of view of, as an example, like, how would you fit peso model? How would you work with the peso model? With this model together, for example. But, but I hear what you're saying. It's not just, you know, you have to be open, obviously, everybody has to be open to having multiple tools in their toolkit and you choose the model that's right for the strategy and for the business that's involved. You know, and if, you know, I can't think of a, of a PR team, comms team that, you know, should not have the peso model running at all times, you know, like in some way. But I understand it may not be. It's not always the lens through which you should be looking to activate. 

Kristel Valaydon [46:39 - 46:42]: Well, also we have to look at how are we going to measure this? 

Dan Nestle [46:43 - 46:43]: Yeah. 

Kristel Valaydon [46:43 - 48:33]: You know, and that's the key thing. And this is where it goes back to. Well, we're aligning this to your business strategy. So actually when we're looking, as I said earlier, I refused to put AVES as part of a measurement tool. In fact, when I start speaking to clients, it's like I will ask them, how are you measuring success? What does success look like to you? Now with the five spheres, I've got different elements of quantitative and qualitative ways of measuring each sphere and we have to choose which ones have you got right now? Which ones have you. Can we look at, you know, everything from employees, you'll look at your employee Net promoter score, for example. You look at satisfaction, you'll look at motivation. Yeah. With media, of course, you're going to have. We're trying to move away from impressions, we're trying to, you know, obviously with digital, you're trying to look at, well, what's. How is this affecting referrals, how's this affecting sentiment? And again, the great thing about community, that has its own set. Again, are they participating, are they engaging with the content that's in there, with the activities that we're doing in terms of how are we co collaborating with them? How is this driving change within the business? There's so much that we can do and measure against. But I think what's really important, it's the problem that we have with PR is that we're trying to show its validity within a business context. So we have to be in line with business metrics. And I don't know if you saw amex, it's updated, it's Barcelona Principles. We're now on four point version four. And one of the things that I absolutely found comforting and interesting that, you know, it's a framework, it's very loose, we can't take it fully. There's all sorts of nuances to consider. 

Dan Nestle [48:34 - 48:42]: Timeout. Many of the listeners wouldn't know what, like myself included. Can you remind us what AMEC is? 

Kristel Valaydon [48:43 - 49:00]: So AMIC is the association of Measurement and Evaluation for Communications and it's international. It started in 2010, much to my delight. It said AVES are not a metric for pr. 

Dan Nestle [49:00 - 49:03]: I'm signing up today. They're so good. Exactly right. 

Kristel Valaydon [49:03 - 51:01]: It's fascinating. They just did their workshop to talk about the new set of principles. So the seven principles. And it comes into again, it's in line. Funny enough with this. It's like you have different stakeholder audiences and stakeholder audiences as they describe it, it's two way communication. It's not just broadcasting. We have to measure in that respect. And when we're looking at benchmarks, we have to look at smart objectives as every business would. We have to look at what those KPIs and measurement that's relevant to the business and what we're trying to achieve and set those targets. We also have to look at quantitative and qualitative sensitive measurements. And so it's putting all this framework into place. We're looking at transparency, how we're using. It used to be that we had to be really transparent about GDPR and data protection, how it's going to be AI, it's going to be fully transparent and how we're doing it, how we're evaluating it, how are we cross checking it and then how do we review it? That's the other thing. You know how often and how you might review your teams will be at a different timeline to how you're reviewing your, your maybe your customers and your community work, to how you're reviewing your media, your outreach. So really is that's why, I mean that it's a leadership skill. We have to embed it into the process. We have to get those. Why I love working with founders and owners that they're much more agile to put this in place early as opposed to a much bigger company that now has to be think about these things. They probably would have done so anyway because of standards, which is great, but if they haven't, then you have to introduce something new. And the whole point of the five spheres is not to give them more work to do, but to actually say, no, let's look at what you've already got. Let's start with that, let's maximize it and let's not leave that out of the process so that they have a clearer understanding of how diverse and integrated PR actually is. 

Dan Nestle [51:02 - 52:30]: Oh for sure. And I realized we've been talking about ave, I should probably spell it out for listeners again in case they forget it's advertising value equivalent. And it's like the old way of saying, well, we secured an article in the New York Times I mentioned for our CEO which is a quarter inch by a quarter inch on the page. And if you bought an ad that was a quarter inch by a quarter inch, it would cost three, you know $30,000. So therefore the ave of that mention is $30,000. Congratulations. You have just had an ROI of 400 bajillion percent. That's the way, that's the way that ave has traditionally worked. And that's why it's utter, complete bullshit and nonsense and it's gotta go. Impressions is next on my list because, you know, it's meaningless. I often say that impressions are like I'm standing at my bedroom window, my neighbor walks by, I don't know if he or she sees me, but I've waved at them. That's an impression. I mean, if they saw me, it's an impression. If they glanced at my house, it's an impression. It's meaningless and it's utter nonsense. There's no action involved. If I'm waving at a highway, if my window overlooks a Highway and 400 cars drive by in the pace of an hour, I've just had 400 impressions. It's nonsense. 

Kristel Valaydon [52:31 - 52:33]: Yeah, it's still being used. 

Dan Nestle [52:33 - 53:03]: It's still being used. But let's go back here a little bit because I did want to. Again, you know, we're talking about some pretty high, highly strategic and high level things. And how do you start with the, with the five sphere framework? And like, how do you, what would it, what would an engagement look like? How do you, how do you begin the process and how do you determine, you know, which, where your focus needs to be across those five spheres? 

Kristel Valaydon [53:05 - 55:24]: So it's an audit first. So we'll take, we'll go through what are your business, what are the business goals? What are we trying to achieve here? What is it? Where are you struggling? What is it that you really need to prioritize? What's urgent and how are we going to come up with this action plan to make sure that we can not only answer those short term challenges, but set you up for success in terms of long term business goals. Because I just found that I was just doing it naturally for 14 years. It just would make sense to me that, well, I can. Again, it really depends on how you view pr. I always saw the role as being a conduit, you know, and using comms as the catalyst of how we communicate that message. But also what are the relationships that we're bringing to the client. And for me, I think that we start with that audit. We put together the plan of going right, how are we going to prioritize this? And it's one of three ways. Either they just want the audit and they can have their internal resources or they just need a bit of strategic input. We can either set them up, especially if it's, it really just depends on their budget. You know, do you want us to come in, set up that you've got a team that you can actually activate this, or do we work with you in partnership and then we go ahead and we just start rolling out the plan? But again, for me, because of how, how there is so much that you can do within marketing and marketing at all, it. What is the point of trying to send out all of this messaging and do this hard work if there are certain things in your marketing arsenal that just aren't there? Like little things that, you know, consistency of message, your website. So for me, it's a great way of really providing the clients with a very transparent view of what they want and also as a very transparent view of what they need to do without being so entwined of, oh, it needs to be a sale for me. Yeah, of course we can actually be quite honest and truthful going, you're not ready because. 

Dan Nestle [55:27 - 57:26]: Well, what I was thinking is, okay, so you do your audit and you have, you can you identify where the gaps are in the communication across these different spheres, where they're doing great, where they're not doing well, what needs to be improved. And then you're saying it's either up to them to then follow through with execution or you stay with them and develop a plan to address the issues in the framework. So the framework gives them a blueprint for moving forward and then you can figure out where to go. It seems like a lot of, a lot of what we're doing now, a lot of these, I suppose, assessments that I'm hearing about that I myself do, but also across consultancies and, and the subject matter experts out there are, it ends up with this plan that involves a whole lot of content. Always like it's, it's often a content driven, but not always, but it's often a content driven, you know, solution that comes first. The gaps often are the result of, well, you know, of course your vision isn't, isn't really clear because you're not putting out the messages you need to. You're not on the right platforms to do it, your internal communications is falling flat, whatever it is, or you don't, you know, these aren't there. So what can you do? You can, you can start a blog, right? You can have a video channel, you can be posting on X, Y, Z. These are all tactics. You know, very, very few people say, well, you need to start by Developing the vision. And you need to build that, that, those narrative pillars and go back there. But it's a whole big package. I'm talking about all this naturally, of course, because I think that one of the. It could be overwhelming to a client. It could be overwhelming to especially a founder or a small business owner. 

Kristel Valaydon [57:26 - 57:26]: Right? 

Dan Nestle [57:26 - 58:10]: I mean, once they're faced with this, oh, man, I have to do all this stuff. That's where AI likely comes into play. And I know that that's not necessarily what you're focused on. Clearly you're part of that world. But do you think that AI, I mean, maybe there's a leading question, but do you think that AI is going to really accelerate the. Accelerate the acceptance, let's say, of the five spheres of connection? And do you think it's an enabler for these things? Or are there places where, no, it really needs to be human. 

Kristel Valaydon [58:11 - 1:00:34]: 100% is going to aid it. 100%, it's human first. And I think this goes back to the question of leadership, because we have to look at things like, I mean, everyone knows this well now, I'm sure. But it's, you know, connection, it's empathy, it's those skills that everyone is trying to develop authenticity. Well, the way that I would look at AI to really help, assist this is research and insights. You know, let's have a look at these different spheres and also audiences, what, what matters to them. How are we processing that information and how can we do that at speed and at least have a really good baseline to start from? I would also say I love AI from a strategic point of view. It's a strategic, you know, sort of sparring partner for me. It's really testing my ideas and really going, how can we make this better? So I've been having so much fun playing with it and just going really challenging and trying to get the best out of the situation and looking at practicality, looking at all sorts of elements just to make it work. And that's the whole point, isn't it? You can have great strategic ideas, but if it doesn't work, then what's the point? How does it work in the real world? And give me some useful cases or stats or probability. And that's the joy of working in agency, is that you get to see other different industries and you're taking from all of that experience. I was told read everything, absolutely read everything. And I still apply that today. And that's where you're getting your creativity and your insights. Well, AI will just speed that up for you. In terms of the research and then the strategy that you're applying for it and then it's speed of development, you know. Yeah, I, again, I have issues apart from what you showed me with your tools, I haven't seen anything yet from a writing perspective that I still haven't got the full. I'm happy to publish as is. There's so much work that's required in it. So I always say human centric approach, human first approach to what you're developing, but oh, wow, the speed in which you can transform that into different variants to get this out. I'm just so conscious that the level. 

Dan Nestle [1:00:34 - 1:00:34]: Of. 

Kristel Valaydon [1:00:37 - 1:01:31]: The band of customers that I'm working with, they're so under pressure, they have too much to think about. So how can we make it easy? How can it make my job easy? And I look at AI and I think, well, it's not only who I'm working with as a client base, but who can I teach this to and what tools can I be embedding? So using AI in terms of a. Right, if you wanted to learn more about this, perhaps for that question and find out for yourself what you could be doing and then you can use AI, you know, it'll be a third party tool that I'm investigating and it's like, right, how can they get their report straight away? And then, you know, really learn from it. Like I said at the very beginning, I think that we have all our challenges within the industry and we can talk about it on LinkedIn or we can actually come up with something that might be hopefully useful. 

Dan Nestle [1:01:33 - 1:02:57]: Stop talking, start doing, you know, it's, it's interesting. Like I as you're talking about the, you know, the model and you know, the framework. Every time I think framework, I think, okay, this is great for AI because then, you know, I can, I've already got a cloud project or a custom GPT in mind for like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna plug in the, you know, everything I need to know about the five spheres and I'm gonna run strategies by my new partner and see what my gaps are and do my assessments and just check out. Oh, get some advice. Yeah, you know, you're, you're falling flat as you have no champions. Here's what you need to do and then, you know, I have my other ways to kind of create amazing content. And thank you, by the way, for that little compliment. You're right, most AI content is not ready for publishing and even the stuff that I'm doing, which I think is super Advanced is. I would never say to a user or customer that, oh yeah, here's your blog post. Just don't even look at it, just post it. No, it's maybe 90, if I'm lucky, it's 90 to 95% there. It's just like. And that's because people are complex and content is complex. And you know, as much as AI puts a lot of stuff together and is able to make sense of a lot of things, it still, and probably, I don't know if it ever will really mimic human complexity, which is, which is one of the advantages that we have. 

Kristel Valaydon [1:02:58 - 1:03:29]: That's the difference. I think that's the difference how we look at film directors. They will have the same script, but how they're going to interpret that will be completely different. And I think that's the beauty of storytelling is that we're looking at different lenses here. It has to apply or it has to be, you know, it has to connect in a certain way and it will be dependent on who the director is and how it's done. And from that perspective, that is a human element right there. It's that creativity, it's that, oh, I. 

Dan Nestle [1:03:29 - 1:04:30]: Just thought of something like another way to talk about what I'm thinking. I just have a new way of kind of describing what I'm doing here is, you know, when you, when you're creating content, it's, you know, if you're thinking about it like filmmaking, do you want Scorsese at the helm or, or do you want, you know, a second year film school student whose own, whose great body of work includes Last month's Claymation 5 Minute Special? There's very different things here. And you know, you don't always want Scorsese. I really, I admit that, because that can be long and it can be very deep and it could be very context rich, which is kind of where I am. So it takes a specific, certain type and won't appeal to everybody. But that's okay. I've just glanced at the clock. I can't believe we've been talking for over an hour. So we can keep going on and on. And I know that it wouldn't be a problem to just find another thing to talk about. I have a list and we only had one or two things. 

Kristel Valaydon [1:04:31 - 1:04:31]: Wow. 

Dan Nestle [1:04:33 - 1:04:36]: Any last words, Kristel, before we wrap up? 

Kristel Valaydon [1:04:37 - 1:06:08]: Any last words? I really think that as an industry with PR and comms, we have such benefit to what is going on in the world right now. And the way that I see it is that we need really smart successful leaders in this world. And I just want to see them succeed with the creative solutions that they can bring into the world. Because when I look at power of business and I look at power of community as in the people coming together, we really need to build better. And I feel that as PR and comms professionals and how we're really uniting what that vision is, how it's actually being implemented, and seeing what that success is. Also, they're conscious of, you know, social conscious of it. Making sure that it is transparent, it is authentic. The word is integrity. Showing what you're doing from the inside out and holding them accountable. I think one of the key things for me is not only do we have to help them succeed, but we also have to challenge them and don't be afraid to. That's one of the hardest things that I see people, you know, are having at the moment. It's like we're in that need of. We need to survive. But equally, we're in services. We're not in servitude, and we are the experts. 

Dan Nestle [1:06:09 - 1:06:13]: We're in services, not in servitude. I have to remember that that's been. 

Kristel Valaydon [1:06:13 - 1:06:14]: My motto for 14 years. 

Dan Nestle [1:06:15 - 1:09:03]: I think that that's terrific. I. I think I wholeheartedly agree with you. And, you know, at the risk of being accused of having delusions of grandeur on behalf of our profession, you know, I've said this before. I'll say it again. You know, we as comms people, I'll even include marketers in this. In this, because, you know, marketers are storytellers as well, and at least certain parts of marketing, we do have the unique skill set to make all of this work and run so much better. You know, I'm not saying we should run the business. What I am saying, though, is that we do have. We have a certain set of talents. You know, we have. We have the right mix to not only build relationships, understand community, you know, reach out, like, can make those human connections and with our stakeholders, but also because of the way that, you know, generative AI works, we are uniquely positioned, I think we storytellers, we word people to really innovate and come up with the most interesting ways to take advantage of AI and put it all together. And I think we could be an incredible force for. I like to say a force for good. Although at the same time, I do sometimes think that PR and comms is the source of a lot of evil in the world. And we'll put a pin in that for another conversation, but we could be a force for good. And we could be a force for change. And we should be. Anyway. Kristel, awesome to have you on the show. I'm so glad I've been after you for a while. I think it's been a long time coming. It's so great to be, well, so great to be your friend, but it's also great to be like, to feel like we have this profession that we share and think a lot in the same ways. And I always learn something when I talk to you. So I hope that everybody listening also learned quite a bit, takes the five spheres of connection with them, looks deeper into each one of those spheres. For their own programs, check out kvcomms.com, that's KVC, KVCO, kvcomms.com to learn more about Kristel and the spheres and her business and the rebel network and all these great things. You can Find Kristel on LinkedIn as we all are. And her name will be spelled properly in the episode graphic, et cetera. Cristel Valedin, which I was mispronouncing Valadon for a long time. Forgive me, please. You know, usually when people say Nestle instead of Nestle, I correct them immediately. So, I mean, you've been very. Your forbearance is admirable. Kristel Vallejdin, thank you so much for being on the show. 

Kristel Valaydon [1:09:03 - 1:09:05]: I'm Kate. Yeah, it's been a pleasure. 

Dan Nestle [1:09:12 - 1:09:37]: Thanks for taking the time to listen in on today's conversation. If you enjoyed it, please be sure to subscribe through the podcast player of your choice. Share with your friends and colleagues and leave me a review. Five stars would be preferred, but it's up to you. Do you have ideas for future guests or you you want to be on the show, let me know at Dan at trendingcommunicator. Com. Thanks again for listening to the trending Communicator.