Chaos, AI, and the Future of Work - with Emanuel Rose

1
00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:58,866
Daniel Nestle: Welcome or welcome back to the trending Communicator. I'm your host, Dan Nestle. I don't know about you, but I'm enjoying the chaos of the moment. Now hang on. Easy does it. I'm not talking about foreign or domestic affairs or politics. I mean, we live in an age where we simply don't know what's coming. Great for curious people. Is AI a miraculous technology heralding an age of invention and innovation, improving our lives and livelihoods? Or is it the start of a dystopian Skynet matrix horror show? Dunno. Is the rise of short video on TikTok and Instagram empowering creators and sparking a new age of entertainment? Or is it a brain numbing psyop designed to undermine society? Don't know. Point is, it's all very exciting and more than anything else, I'm incredibly curious about what's coming next.

2
00:00:59,018 --> 00:01:48,772
Daniel Nestle: And that's an affliction I think I share with my guest today. A storyteller and a marketer, he's known for his ability to anticipate trends while delivering business results. He's built a business and a career as an expert in brand story, lead generation, advertising and digital agency operations. And somehow he's found the time to be the CEO of the digital marketing agency Strategic E Marketing, author several books including Authenticity Marketing to Generation Z, the Social Media Edge and Authentic Marketing in the Age of AI, speak at numerous conferences, host the popular Marketing in the Age of AI podcast, and produce a documentary film about fly fishing. And I'm sure there's a lot more because, you know, he's a Renaissance man. So when you talk to a Renaissance man, you know, you just honestly don't know where the conversation is going to go.

3
00:01:48,956 --> 00:01:56,022
Daniel Nestle: But you know what, let's get into the chaos of the day with my friend, the Renaissance man himself, Emanuel Rose.

4
00:01:56,166 --> 00:01:59,622
Emanuel Rose: Well, thanks for that, Daniel. I appreciate that. Nice intro.

5
00:01:59,766 --> 00:02:46,078
Daniel Nestle: Oh, no, you got it. I mean, it's just fascinating to kind of explore the mystery that is Emanuel. And you know, like, I, I will just transparently tell our listeners here that, you know, a few weeks ago I had the pleasure of being on Emanuel's podcast and by the time this releases, I'm not sure if it's, if that will be out yet. But you know, in the process of just like sitting and talking with Emanuel for about, I don't know, an hour, I guess, we spoke, it just became clear I need to talk more. Like we need to have a deeper conversation. We were touching on some fun stuff. We are, we're kind of like minded in terms of where we think AI is going, the kind of trends that we're looking at for the future.

6
00:02:46,244 --> 00:03:25,542
Daniel Nestle: You know, you're looking at it a little bit more from a marketing lens, but you're also into the communication space which is why you're on the trending communicator. And you know, frankly, we're both Gen Xers and I'm going to put that out there because I'm sure that's going to pop up in the conversation because that's sort of what we talked about a little bit. Is this crazy, you know, lack of adoption among Gen Xers or kind of relative lack of adoption among Gen Xers for AI and things like this. But anyway, I wax too much and too often. Emanuel, it is great to see you. And is there anything I missed in the intro that you'd like to kind of bring up here before we get going?

7
00:03:25,646 --> 00:03:38,702
Emanuel Rose: That was good. The mystery is that I also have a book series that's children's book series that's goodness gracious, based on values, clarification and natural history.

8
00:03:38,846 --> 00:03:41,102
Daniel Nestle: Are you also a champion martial arts?

9
00:03:41,166 --> 00:04:05,492
Emanuel Rose: Martial artist, you know, no, not that. But a yacht racer maybe soon. I'm not sure. No, that's not that interesting to me. You know, I just, I follow the rabbit holes and that's kind of what I think is the joy of being a human. And we have access to so much information now, we can learn anything we want. And the secret is to stay curious.

10
00:04:05,686 --> 00:04:58,720
Daniel Nestle: I 100% agree. And you mentioned something there about just jumping down rabbit holes. There's this kind of, let's say, preconceived notion or kind of misunderstanding, I think across the so called professional set that rabbit hole equates to wasting time. And yeah, I mean to a degree, if you have a job to do and you're going down these holes that have absolutely nothing to do with your job. Sure, because you're on somebody else's pay, you payroll, someone else is paying, you're free. But you said that you're going down rabbit holes but you're actually like following them through to the warren to where they're complete. So what are the rabbit holes you're looking at now and what is on your mind these days? Maybe that's a great place to start because frankly we can go anywhere.

11
00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:09,260
Daniel Nestle: And I know that you're doing a lot with AI with automation. What are the things that are on your mind now that we as communicators and as marketers really should be paying attention to.

12
00:05:10,040 --> 00:06:07,096
Emanuel Rose: Well, I think the really cool part of AI that we're starting to see is the rise of agents and Agentic activity from AI. We're actually able to build, very simply build automations, which maybe not is really AI, but at least we're able to connect things via ZAP and via MAKE and some of these kind of activities. But then we also have now the Anthropic Model Context Protocol, the mcp and this is a standardization of how applications can provide context and link up with the LLMs. And it's really the beginning of Agentic activity at kind of what I consider a retail level. Like I'm a technology enthusiast, but I don't write any code, right. So I have to have retail level and Anthropic has got it.

13
00:06:07,168 --> 00:06:29,254
Emanuel Rose: Now we're one step away from retail level agentified activity, which will allow for instance, this podcast to go from scheduling to edited shorts and distribution without Dan having touch anything from your lips.

14
00:06:29,302 --> 00:07:24,146
Daniel Nestle: Really man. I mean I, I've been following this as well and I literally just read about MCP yesterday I think is when I learned about it. And then was it at same time either sometime yesterday or today? At the time of this recording, Anthropic added search web access to Claude, which again confirms my belief that Claude is the best LLM out there for people in our profession, especially for creatives. And boy, does it have incredible deep thinking capabilities with version 3.7. And it may be a couple of months before this comes out. So who knows where they're going to be then. But you talk about agentic retail agent again, that's an interesting phrase because I haven't heard it quite put that way and that you're not a coder, you look. Me neither works.

15
00:07:24,178 --> 00:08:10,264
Daniel Nestle: That's again one of those areas where we kind of, you know, are running in the same pack where I don't know anything about code. And you know, this whole thing now about vibe coding is fascinating because it means basically we can code, right? And I had my first experience with automation. Been avoiding it for a long time because it's like frankly it's could be drudgery. But I had my first experience with it the other like a couple weeks ago, spent hours and hours just trying to work out one small step in a process because it was, there was code involved and I didn't know how to do the code. So I was using AI to help me write the code, but AI wasn't getting the code right. So then you Know, after. And I'm. This is not an exaggeration.

16
00:08:10,392 --> 00:08:31,560
Daniel Nestle: After four and a half hours one line of code, you know, I kept. Yeah, I started to yell at the AI, you know, it was chat, GPT, yell at, wait, you're going back and making the same mistakes you did before. Even I know that now. After three hours, I started to recognize the code and then it dawned on me. Wait a Second, there's like 14 different models of AI that I can choose from.

17
00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:32,152
Emanuel Rose: Sure.

18
00:08:32,256 --> 00:09:14,138
Daniel Nestle: So I just switched it up to one of the other models and then like two tries and it got the code right. I love Save me. You know, I. If I'd had known that, I would have saved three and a half hours. But I learned a lot for sure. And I think that's where we are now. Like, you know, and when things become this kind of retail agentic AI, even that level of like, you know, persistence won't necessarily be. Be kind of benefit to anyone. But, you know, when. What do you think this is? So you said it's going to like, I could theoretically, if it's me, like from start to finish, record the podcast and then have it all done, edited, everything, touch of a button. Right? Done.

19
00:09:14,194 --> 00:09:14,570
Emanuel Rose: Yeah.

20
00:09:14,650 --> 00:09:42,372
Daniel Nestle: Right. You know, this is the. I think it's the thing that a lot of people are afraid of in our world because it's going to. By cutting out so many tasks, it makes you feel like you don't have as much to contribute, and I would argue that it actually frees you up to do more. But what's your thoughts on this and what are you seeing? Well, for this, as this happens, I.

21
00:09:42,396 --> 00:10:32,992
Emanuel Rose: Tend to get more philosophical about it in terms of human consciousness and why we're incarnated. Right. Our job is not to click buttons any more than it is to swing a hoe. Right. So we have to get out of our Cartesian framework. Renee Descartes this, I think, therefore I am framework and say, well, if my primary job duties, which have in the last, over the course of our careers have taken us 40 to 70 hours a week, if I can shrink those primary job duties down to 15 or 20 hours a week, well, that's a beautiful thing. If I can maintain the same level of income, I have now freed up a majority of my life to explore what it is to be a human, to spend time with my friends, my family, to do creative acts, like learn how to play a lute.

22
00:10:33,056 --> 00:11:14,170
Emanuel Rose: Because I want to do, I want to play music from the Renaissance, whatever the thing is, right, I want to write a book about the history of Chucker in Oregon, the state of Oregon, you know, whatever the little rabbit hole is. And so the challenge always with this type of technology is that as humans and in this over rationalized thinking process is that we just want to do more so we can buy more and consume more. And, and if that's the way that it goes, then we've lost the plot, in my estimation.

23
00:11:14,330 --> 00:12:08,974
Daniel Nestle: Yeah, I, you know, I can't disagree with you, although it's so tempting because as a, as I guess a entrepreneur now, it's so hard to call myself that because now I run my own consultancy. I keep thinking that, all right, I can get a lot of this stuff done faster. On the one hand, the, I wouldn't say cynic. On the one hand, the person who might think, oh, you know, that means you're going to be charging your clients less because you're, you know, there's less billable hours, so aren't you doing yourself a disservice? Whereas I would say, you know, what is wrong with you because, you know, when you can deliver things faster to your clients, then guess what happens? You get more client work, maybe you'll finish that project faster.

24
00:12:09,022 --> 00:12:48,388
Daniel Nestle: And it might be a short term sacrifice, but I know that my clients are happy when I can say, you know, I know I was budgeted 45 hours for this particular task, but you know, four and a half hours have passed and it's done and they go, what? You know, so of course they're not going to pay me the rest of the 40 hours. But, you know, it doesn't matter because now there's goodwill. But the thing is what I was going to get to is like this whole idea of freeing up that time to be more human. You know, to me, I free that, free up the time and that makes me want to push more in the. I need to learn more technology or I need to learn this or I need to kind of focus in and build the business.

25
00:12:48,444 --> 00:12:57,012
Daniel Nestle: And I suppose that's the priorities. And I don't know where it's going to end. You know, where does that, when does that stop?

26
00:12:57,196 --> 00:13:54,730
Emanuel Rose: Yeah, that's the values clarification part. And so we know from Heideggerian philosophy, which is counter to Cartesian, is that there's 13 permanent domains of human concern, right? There's our body, there's the ways that we have fun and enjoy hobbies and our family and our work. And our education and our career and there's accessibility to our culture and the world and our spirituality. Right. And so if we embrace that, there's lots more to do besides work and then go on vacation in the Bahamas for a week and then come back and work really hard for another four months and then. Right. And there's this process of creation that we can engage in and fulfilling more of our destiny than just being work units and consumer units.

27
00:13:57,150 --> 00:14:52,318
Daniel Nestle: I should have known to bone up on my philosophy before I got on with you today. And I'm sure more is going to come out. But it's interesting that these are this kind of, like we said, we're Gen Xers. And I suppose this is the way that a lot of us think. I mean, many of us of our particular bracket are either at the pinnacle of their careers. If they're working in corporate, for example, the executives now, a lot of them are Xers or they've left business. And a remarkable number, probably more than has ever been seen before, are just to say, nope, I want to drive the bus, I'm going out on my own, because the opportunity is there. But that values proposition or that kind of values limitation, or what did you call it? The values.

28
00:14:52,414 --> 00:14:53,390
Emanuel Rose: Oh, clarification.

29
00:14:53,470 --> 00:15:50,650
Daniel Nestle: Values clarification, thank you very much. That values for clarification, I think is not consistent across the boards. Right. But generationally, I think I can kind of feel what Gen Xers are doing. But I know you've done a lot of work with the Gen Zers and you know, in your business you are across, you know, with the. By virtue of having so many clients in the small medium business space especially, you know, you're talking to businesses who need to reach customers, stakeholders, et cetera, across all generations. So from this value standpoint, and we can kind of riff on this a little bit, but from this value standpoint also their attitude towards AI, their attitude towards just technology adoption work in general, what are you seeing from your view of the generational differences and is that part of the chaos that we're seeing now?

30
00:15:51,270 --> 00:16:45,080
Emanuel Rose: Well, for sure, there's massive differences in the generations and the chaos is just from the rapid progression. Right. I mean, even you and I can't keep up with the progression. And you know, I, I this, I mean, I started the agent series of talks on my podcast in the beginning of March and I, you know, with the premise that, oh, agentification is a few years away. And then in the middle of the series we have MCP pop. Right. So, you know, that spirit that Speed just says, okay, we can't keep up with the bleeding edge, any of us. I mean, there's a few companies that are doing it. That's awesome. They're going to push the envelope. But we've got to figure out how do we ground these changes into our businesses in rational ways. It's not.

31
00:16:45,200 --> 00:17:23,604
Emanuel Rose: We don't have to keep up with the bleeding edge, but we do need to integrate because there's so much leverage in it. And I think that's part of why that extras are not at a high adoption rate, because they're kind of at the top edge of the. The business culture. Right. They're not the doers necessarily. They're the strategic planners, thinkers, relationship builders, where, you know, the. The millennials are like, oh, here's another tool in my toolbox. That's cool. That's easy. The Z's just. They just absorb this stuff and, you know, and then, you know, they were all. All the way down to the alphas. Now they're.

32
00:17:23,652 --> 00:17:23,876
Daniel Nestle: Yeah.

33
00:17:23,907 --> 00:17:38,966
Emanuel Rose: You know, they're like 8, 9, 10, that range. And so it's like they're going to absorb it in the same kind of way. Although there is a split in the alpha parenting style where there's a lot of parents are saying no screens.

34
00:17:39,078 --> 00:17:39,366
Daniel Nestle: Yeah.

35
00:17:39,398 --> 00:17:47,810
Emanuel Rose: And they're actually kind of putting a hard stop on it, so. Which will create its own Little Chasm in 15 years.

36
00:17:48,110 --> 00:18:01,084
Daniel Nestle: Oh, I'd love to see that. I'm sure Jonathan Haidt is doing a study as we speak. You know, as a parent of two Zers or, like, one might be on the cusp, but 18 and 20, my girls.

37
00:18:01,132 --> 00:18:01,720
Emanuel Rose: Right.

38
00:18:02,980 --> 00:19:03,226
Daniel Nestle: You know, they're perfect examples, I think, of the screen culture and, you know, the. The lack of information parents had 10 years ago when, you know, cell phones or mobiles, whatever were getting, were seriously proliferating across teenagers and, you know, especially just pre pandemic. And then during the pandemic, you know, you're stuck as a parent in between. Like, okay, do you. Do you prevent your child from being part of the social fabric by restricting them, by restricting their screen time? Or do you say, you know what? I'm gonna harden them up, make it. This is the right thing to do. We are going to prevent them from using the screen. They're gonna be upset with us, but it'll be worth it in the long run. I was not strong enough for that latter choice, I would tell you that. Right. And most parents aren't.

39
00:19:03,338 --> 00:19:12,880
Daniel Nestle: Now it seems, though, that these zers, a lot of them are just like taking it on themselves to say, I need to go out and touch grass.

40
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:13,552
Emanuel Rose: Sure.

41
00:19:13,656 --> 00:19:52,714
Daniel Nestle: You know, my older daughter, 20, is exactly that. You know, I noticed she's in college in Japan and I noticed when I went to visit her, she wasn't like looking at her phone all the time. And I remarked to her, I said, you know, wow, you're not even, you know, you're not heavily invested in like finding out who's. She's like, why would I do that? Like, I have, I know who my friends are. I like to go out in the park and lay down on the grass. You know, I've deleted half of the apps that sucked away my life, you know, and I'm, I was, first of all, I was super proud as a dad that she had become so self aware.

42
00:19:52,762 --> 00:20:17,400
Daniel Nestle: But I was also thinking, I wonder if this is like a trend, you know, this is happening and it turns out that a lot of her friends are like this. And so there's hope after all. But, but it does bring up this whole thing where each of them, each of these groups has a very different approach to adopting technology and a senses of urgency, I guess.

43
00:20:18,700 --> 00:20:45,250
Emanuel Rose: Yeah. And the real thing is that we know that there are such dramatic changes to the brain from both social media and from screen time and that it creates that dopamine addiction. And, and so there's we. It's a, it's a. No, it's just like, you know, you don't let your kids drink Jack Daniels with dinner. So, you know, you've drawn that line.

44
00:20:46,830 --> 00:20:47,622
Daniel Nestle: Right.

45
00:20:47,806 --> 00:21:29,894
Emanuel Rose: So, you know, that's kind of the space I take is. I'm like, yeah, you know, you've got to find a way to monitor and manage as an adult of a teenager because they're not good at decision making all the time. Like I wasn't. You probably ran into a few things in your teenage years. And then we need to create as parents these open opportunities to disconnect every day they need to disconnect every one day a week they need to disconnect. And one week a month or a few days a month, they need to disconnect to get that Digital detox is what everybody calls it, but it's still let the body level out and be grounded back in the body.

46
00:21:30,062 --> 00:22:25,080
Daniel Nestle: Now you tell me it's true. Knew it was. We knew that were in a tough spot. And there's other external factors, of course, that you have to consider with each child. But you know, I think as they grow older, they're you know, they're. The Gen Z is similar to Gen X. This is what I've figured or what I'm without any research that I think that Gen Z is remarkably similar to Gen X in that and that they are essentially self motivated and cynical, a little untrusting, but also just starting to get more and more comfortable just being by themselves and just saying I really don't care about that and shuffling off things that are wasting their time.

47
00:22:26,410 --> 00:22:37,714
Daniel Nestle: And as they grow, I'm assuming that I'm hoping that they will do the same with some of this frivolous and psyop mind numbing crap that's on their phones.

48
00:22:37,762 --> 00:22:39,202
Emanuel Rose: Right? Yeah.

49
00:22:39,346 --> 00:22:42,370
Daniel Nestle: I don't know about, I don't know about Gen Alpha though, but you know.

50
00:22:42,410 --> 00:23:29,202
Emanuel Rose: Yeah, no, the Z's. What I like about the Z's is that they are, they're very committed to education. So as a group that is a critical process and they like to make money also. They want to be like, you're saying, independ and kind of doing their own thing. That's on the positive side. There's a lot of challenges they have and not the least of it is these things that we're talking about around dopamine addiction and a certain lack of ability to engage human to human especially. It's funny to watch them in customer service interactions. It's like a whole generation of autistic kids, you know, like nobody can make eye contact with you.

51
00:23:29,306 --> 00:23:32,338
Daniel Nestle: Yeah. They don't know how to speak on the phone.

52
00:23:32,514 --> 00:23:33,230
Emanuel Rose: Right.

53
00:23:33,530 --> 00:23:38,578
Daniel Nestle: Which is really interesting. My daughter gets paralyzed when we're like, I'm like, just call the doctor's office.

54
00:23:38,714 --> 00:23:41,954
Emanuel Rose: Right. What, what, can I just text him?

55
00:23:42,042 --> 00:24:36,902
Daniel Nestle: Yeah, exactly. Look, everybody has their own communication methodology and there's, there's nothing. I don't think there's any real kind of, you know, value judgment we should make about that. Like people have been communicating in different ways throughout as different medium become available through the course of history. And who's to say that, you know, texting isn't effective for these folks? I mean it's obviously, you know, in neuroscience and when we talk about our need to interpret facial signs and just generally speaking the animal parts of us that need to have that, you know, texting doesn't really work completely, but it is a very effective mode I think for, you know, for a lot of what they need to do.

56
00:24:36,926 --> 00:24:47,516
Daniel Nestle: It's just getting them into the business world where they actually got to think about what they write and actually sit in a meeting with someone and express themselves is, I'm sure it's a challenge.

57
00:24:47,708 --> 00:25:07,852
Emanuel Rose: Well that impulse control in general is a challenge from, just from the way that the brain chemistry has changed. So yeah, it's an interesting challenge and you know, it's our job as the elders now in the culture to grab them and tell them what some of the things are non negotiable and some of the things we have to adapt to.

58
00:25:07,956 --> 00:25:53,350
Daniel Nestle: Yeah, yeah, also. So, you know, and just to circle back a little bit and like I said, I didn't know where this was going to go and I still don't. But you said something earlier about, you know, the fact that we can't keep up with the pace of change, the pace of technology. That's why there's chaos or that's why we feel the chaos. And you know, looking specifically, more specifically at AI and you know, the generational adoptions, my daughters by the way, are not AI users. I mean they could care less. But I know that, you know, they'll just take to it when the time comes. The point that you made earlier though, that I wanted to kind of peel apart a little bit is this idea that we can't keep up with the bleeding edge.

59
00:25:54,570 --> 00:26:24,734
Daniel Nestle: And that's why a lot of Xers either kind of have tuned out or really are just like, okay, I'm at where I need to be in my life and why bother? Which is kind of. I understand. I think that there's also this element of what Martin Waxman, a former guest of mine said called fobo, fear of becoming obsolete that encourages or kind of is an urgency there for people to adopt and to try these things.

60
00:26:24,822 --> 00:27:07,140
Daniel Nestle: But it also has a negative effect or a kind of oppositional effect where maybe there's entire generation of Gen X has oppositional disorder where they see these things happening and rather than get fobo, they start to feel fear of like maybe it's just fogy or something, fear of joining in, you know, but like since this stuff is moving so fast, I'm not going to catch up anyway, so I might as well not do it. And I think that's a paralytic effect on a lot of businesses. And are you seeing that among your clients and how are you dealing with it if you are?

61
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:16,600
Emanuel Rose: I am astounded at the lack of adoption in my clients in small businesses that I talk to. I mean, it's inconceivable to me.

62
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:16,840
Daniel Nestle: Right.

63
00:27:16,880 --> 00:28:12,842
Emanuel Rose: Like I've built this whole pathway for the last four years around this one topic. So anyway, what I'm doing now is I'm, I call it hand holding, but I'll say I'm breaking it down into these lunch and learn kind of workshops for my client base so that we can get in there, identify the terms, the ontology, the deployment processes, and start to build the conversation in terms of this is the landscape. And here are the steps in which you need to have a policy number one around AI. You need to find things that you're either not good at, you don't have staff, or your people hate doing. And that's the first thing we need to automate. And then we're going to build a map of what that process looks like to say, you know, 1, 2, 3 clicks.

64
00:28:12,906 --> 00:28:34,646
Emanuel Rose: And then it's going to be done for the rest of the business's life. And then we can start to look at agents and identification after we have this really fundamental groundwork built out. But yeah, it is, it's almost inconceivable to me how difficult it is to have a conversation about it with my clients who are Gen X and boomer age people.

65
00:28:34,718 --> 00:29:22,404
Daniel Nestle: Yeah, I mean, some people might say, yeah, boomers, of course, but no boomers, believe me, they want to get a grasp of this, especially since now that their 401ks are kind of having trouble, like, okay, I need to figure some of this stuff out. And that goes for Xers as well, I suppose. But you know, like what I'm seeing, and same thing, I'm astounded at the lack of adoption. What I'm seeing is like this thinking that, oh, gosh, I have to get the policy. I've got to get these things in order. Sure. Especially if you're a larger corporation. And I would almost venture to guess that any of the Fortune 500 or the publicly listed companies already kind of have a lot of that in place or at least in the process. Right.

66
00:29:22,572 --> 00:29:24,452
Emanuel Rose: They at least have a committee that's working on it.

67
00:29:24,476 --> 00:30:21,440
Daniel Nestle: They have a committee or they have something or they're, you know, they, or the wrong thing in place, but they've got something. Yeah, but it's totally regulated industries, different story. But the idea that like, they, you know, these like companies or people who run companies or leading marketing teams and comms teams, you know, they're not sure, like what tools they need to use. What, like, gosh, you know, I have chat GPT and that's it. And I can't figure this out. Or we're a co pilot house. And because we're a co pilot, this is all we can do. I mean, and sorry, copilot people, you're right. There's not a lot you can do. However, however, there's, you know, they get really confused by the, by this cloud of tools and stuff. And my approach, you know, especially more recently, has been to forget the tools.

68
00:30:21,780 --> 00:30:24,956
Daniel Nestle: Right. Just forget them. What do you need to do?

69
00:30:25,108 --> 00:30:25,804
Emanuel Rose: Right.

70
00:30:25,972 --> 00:30:36,604
Daniel Nestle: Start there. Right. As you were saying, identifying those, you know, tasks that nobody wants to do, that's a good starting place. But even the tasks that you want to do and you want to do better.

71
00:30:36,772 --> 00:30:37,310
Emanuel Rose: Sure.

72
00:30:37,420 --> 00:30:39,226
Daniel Nestle: You know, the bread and butter of your business.

73
00:30:39,378 --> 00:30:39,882
Emanuel Rose: Yeah.

74
00:30:39,946 --> 00:30:43,866
Daniel Nestle: Well, let's map those out and see where, then figure out which tools work.

75
00:30:44,018 --> 00:30:44,666
Emanuel Rose: Right.

76
00:30:44,818 --> 00:31:00,474
Daniel Nestle: You know, and then they say, well, I mean, investing in those now, then we're going to have to change those in a couple of months. I'm like, well, it's essentially 20 bucks a month per user. Like, we're not talking about an SAP implementation, Right?

77
00:31:00,562 --> 00:31:01,706
Emanuel Rose: Yeah, exactly.

78
00:31:01,898 --> 00:31:09,252
Daniel Nestle: So, yes, there's cost, but if you're a small business, there's almost no cost. It's very, it's very low.

79
00:31:09,356 --> 00:31:19,908
Emanuel Rose: And once you map it out, understand the process, then plugging in a different LLM or a different piece of software is not a big deal. So, yeah, it, it's. All the hard work's been done.

80
00:31:20,044 --> 00:31:38,090
Daniel Nestle: Yeah, it's just like they, it's just, it's important that. I think it's just important people understand that, you know, they just don't have to do it all. And it's a mindset thing as well, as much as it is an actual technical or infrastructure thing.

81
00:31:38,790 --> 00:32:11,344
Emanuel Rose: Yeah, well, I agree. Well, humans live in narratives. And so the narrative of either I'm on the cutting edge or I'm out of it. It's kind of where we. Again, we're very Cartesian in black and white about how we think of these things. Either I'm in it or I'm out of it, you know, or I'm missing out and I feel bad about it. Well, it's not a feeling thing. It's just a function of business. And you're looking at leverage of 10 to 100 times time. Time savings on some of these things. Yeah.

82
00:32:11,472 --> 00:32:33,970
Emanuel Rose: So, you know where I can take two days worth of strategic planning, run it through Otter, come up with an executive summary and a list of action items, and that takes all of four minutes and then I review it, make sure I see everything I remember and then I send it out. I mean that's. Yeah, it's amazing.

83
00:32:34,130 --> 00:32:52,430
Daniel Nestle: And you say that. I'm like, yeah, of course. But some people listening might be like, what? Otter who? What? Gosh, I got to take this stuff and I got to run it through here and I got to run this and I got to. You don't know how easy this is. I mean, I have been joking with people half assedly over the many years that I'm a lazy person.

84
00:32:52,870 --> 00:32:53,374
Emanuel Rose: Right.

85
00:32:53,462 --> 00:33:15,806
Daniel Nestle: I want things to be done easily. Why would I be pursuing these difficult things with AI if, if I'm fundamentally want things to be done easier, it's because I want them done easier. And that ends. It ends up with me doing a lot of stuff. So you know, like for all intents purposes, I'm not really a lazy person. But you know what I mean? Like I want things to be done faster and easier.

86
00:33:15,998 --> 00:33:33,754
Emanuel Rose: Well, and I don't want to click around anymore. That's, that's my thing. I want to stop clicking things. And so we're very close. I'd say three months. We will have a complete voice activated operating system and be able to do probably 90% of our work by voice.

87
00:33:33,882 --> 00:33:37,030
Daniel Nestle: Are you, are you doing a lot with conversational AI right now?

88
00:33:37,330 --> 00:34:31,110
Emanuel Rose: Yeah, I have a good development team that I'm working with and for instance, we have a, or just wrapping up a product that does accounts receivable phone calls. Because that's something that nobody likes doing, right? The humans don't like doing it. The AI is happy to do it every time and is very polite, makes the phone calls, texts a stripe link and then can take payments. So that's very powerful. And then also a voice assistant that is like I need to go to Cleveland to do a keynote speech. I need to fly on this day and that day. Find me the flights. And then it populates, you know the answers for you. There's also this really amazing tool called Bordy B O A R D Y dot AI.

89
00:34:31,610 --> 00:34:34,466
Daniel Nestle: We'll find out the right one for the notes. Yeah, yeah.

90
00:34:34,498 --> 00:35:08,860
Emanuel Rose: I'll make sure we get it the right one. But basically Bordy's a voice actor AI and I'm not involved in the company, but they're really smart. So I call and I say, hey Bordy, I'm looking for an event planner in Maui that has something going on in June because I want to do a speech in Maui so I can go on vacation and boreal say, hey, let me check it out and see what I can find on LinkedIn. And we. I'll connect you if I find something. And so then I get an email and it's got the name of the person and my name and they say, hey, you guys should talk and do some networking and let me know how it goes.

91
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,826
Daniel Nestle: People can't see me right now, but I'm like, I'm a little astounded and takes a lot to down me these days.

92
00:35:13,898 --> 00:35:28,866
Emanuel Rose: So I have a weekly phone call with Bordy and whatever is on the top of my mind that I need access to. He's. And he's got an Australian accent, which is really cute and I always like, hey Bor, I'd like to take you out for a beer. What do you think it's like? Well, I'm a voice AI, but I appreciate it, you know.

93
00:35:28,938 --> 00:35:29,570
Daniel Nestle: Yeah.

94
00:35:29,730 --> 00:35:41,910
Emanuel Rose: So anyway, that level of voice interaction is happening now and in the next year we will, we'll be doing very little typing. That's my, that's my, my guess.

95
00:35:42,070 --> 00:36:00,050
Daniel Nestle: Do you think that all the focus that some of us have on prompting, for example, is going to continue to be useful and should we keep focusing in on getting those prompts better?

96
00:36:01,150 --> 00:36:54,878
Emanuel Rose: I think so. I don't see yet until we build out our custom GPTs, you know, so that they're so that, you know, we have all our research and tone and context built into each of these segments of our life. Until we have those completely built correctly and thoroughly, we're going to need to write good prompts. We may be getting better cues. That may be something that I could envision, which is I start a new project and then the AI asked me a survey basically in order to get the context in and roles and all those things it needs. But right now we still need to understand that, how to construct prompts. And I've got great resources for that on my website. If people want to just have an idea how to do that, I'll send.

97
00:36:54,894 --> 00:37:12,074
Daniel Nestle: Them there for sure from the show. And you know, I've been having conversations about this with people recently and thinking was, well, there's going to be a button. And you know, there's a button on, in different apps. Yes, there's button, but the button can't do a good job. The button can't nearly do as good.

98
00:37:12,082 --> 00:37:16,230
Emanuel Rose: A job as you can unless it's the neuralink button, it's not going to do a good job.

99
00:37:16,690 --> 00:37:45,828
Daniel Nestle: That's true, that's true. But I've been Focusing a lot on this, like, and discovering a lot of, and a lot of people have done the work for us already. You know, there are great custom GPTs available that will, you know, create prompts for you and create great prompts for you, and there's countless numbers of these. It's just, and it's, it's like just once you start to scratch the surface and you understand, I think you sort of start to get the hang of interacting. There's almost no excuse to be like, to avoid it anymore.

100
00:37:46,004 --> 00:38:38,860
Daniel Nestle: You know, there's so much that you can do and you know where I think though, and just to kind of bring us back to something you said earlier and also like a theme I hear in your feeling about the future is like the human part of our interaction with AI and what we need to be doing. I think it comes down, I think comes down to storytelling, you know, and no, I mean, AI could tell a story. You give it a framework, right? Say, hey, I want you to follow this framework. But is there that innate capability There isn't yet to outpace humans or outdo humans in this idea of storytelling, whether it's creative storytelling or brand storytelling.

101
00:38:41,040 --> 00:39:12,150
Daniel Nestle: This is where I know you've made your bones and where I claim to be somewhat of an expert and I surely hope that AI helps me with it. But I, but I'm very, you know, I'm very kind of cynical or like, I don't know, I'm doubtful that AI will ever be able to connect the kind of pieces together that a free thinking human can in a story. What are you thinking?

102
00:39:12,890 --> 00:40:14,458
Emanuel Rose: Well, I think that's interesting as I think whether it can or cannot, I don't think that's the question. I think if there is invalid, if there's inherent value for human consciousness for it to do that. So yeah, can we put in the Tolkien novels and Carl Jung and put that into a custom GPT and give it context as a writer who would bring up archetypal themes and tell a new story about a space odyssey based on the Viking mythology. Right. Like I could write a beautiful story about that. Right. Does that trigger, would it be able to trigger the same emotions and visualization and consciousness to spark consciousness? If it does, then it's valuable. If it doesn't, then. Then, you know, that's kind of where I land.

103
00:40:14,514 --> 00:40:19,882
Emanuel Rose: It's like it probably could, it could probably write an amazing story with that, the correct documents in it.

104
00:40:19,986 --> 00:40:25,066
Daniel Nestle: I think it would take a good storyteller to do to Help it make a good story.

105
00:40:25,218 --> 00:40:39,706
Emanuel Rose: Well, I think so, too. I think the human in the loop is the critical part of this. And it's kind of like, could I have my doppelganger, my video doppelganger, do all my zoom calls for me? Well, yeah, I can. I can do that now. You know, there's.

106
00:40:39,738 --> 00:40:40,362
Daniel Nestle: Yeah, there's.

107
00:40:40,426 --> 00:40:53,990
Emanuel Rose: There's great technology for that. I draw the line there. That's not interesting to me. I'm in charge of me and my likeness and my relationships. And so that. That's just where I draw the line, because that's what my values are.

108
00:40:55,090 --> 00:41:07,568
Daniel Nestle: Yeah. I'm not comfortable either with. With, you know, Avatar Dan being on a zoom call or something. Unless. Unless he's with me, in which case it's fun.

109
00:41:07,704 --> 00:41:09,344
Emanuel Rose: Yeah, right. Yeah.

110
00:41:09,472 --> 00:42:02,902
Daniel Nestle: Which Dan are we talking? We're talking this one. And I literally just started playing with that within the last few days. This idea of building my own avatar, as if one of me isn't enough. It's more for fun right now. It's a kind of gimmick, but it's an indicator of the future. You're going to have a whole team of avatars around a, you know, who are being managed by an agent. And then the question is our role in this. And our role, of course, is to create that whole thing and to manage the agent. Right. Do we become. Here's a philosophical one for you. Do, like, do we become their creator? Like their kind of. If they are. If they start to get this kind of. To this level of AGI or something, do they then think then, oh, my. We have a creator.

111
00:42:02,966 --> 00:42:10,470
Daniel Nestle: We have creators. Like, do we need to elevate them or do we need to ignore them, or is that even a factor? I don't know.

112
00:42:10,510 --> 00:42:43,638
Emanuel Rose: Yeah. Well, I think we are in a spot, and we're not that far away from having a. We know we have robots, and we know that we write the software that the robots run on, and we know that the. The software is written by people with a. A certain desire to create reality. So, yeah, we're gonna be dealing with that in our lifetime. We're not going to die before we have to deal with. With malicious AI.

113
00:42:43,734 --> 00:42:45,158
Daniel Nestle: Oh, it's already there. I mean, there are.

114
00:42:45,214 --> 00:42:45,622
Emanuel Rose: There's.

115
00:42:45,686 --> 00:42:47,766
Daniel Nestle: Anytime there's a technology, there's malicious actors.

116
00:42:47,878 --> 00:42:48,570
Emanuel Rose: Yeah.

117
00:42:49,550 --> 00:43:39,920
Daniel Nestle: And I, you know, I've heard enough from people who always talk about only the malicious stuff. You keep forgetting that there's two sides to the battle and what's being developed. That side. I was thinking, though, As a communicator and storytelling being our core, I think writing, storytelling, these kinds of things being our core skill set, gives people who are in comms, in brand storytelling and you know, the creative world actually a kind of hidden advantage when it comes to adapting to the new AI world. And I kind of base my whole future on it actually. And you know, it's not like I don't feel like I'm placing a bet. I feel like this is enabling me to do so much that I always wanted to do and I'm going to have to reel it back somewhere.

118
00:43:41,780 --> 00:44:19,580
Daniel Nestle: But I'm curious to know, in the advertising, marketing, communications world that you live in, is that core skill set for people going to remain the same? Is it going to be more of that? The storyteller becomes the more sought after employee, for example? I mean, you know, it's hard to tell. I've heard, I've had a lot of opinions about it on the show, but curious to hear yours.

119
00:44:20,000 --> 00:45:18,648
Emanuel Rose: Yeah, I mean, I think we still, we're gonna. The fundamentals of being able to trigger emotion and understanding how to create problem, solution, agitation, call to action, you know, how to identify, you know, the AI can do all that stuff and it'll continue to get better and better and, and building ICPs and the psychological need and all those things, but we still need to be able to replicate our human stories and tell them the people that trigger them into action. So yeah, the human spark still is going to differentiate brands, messages, ads, books, podcasts. I mean, we could do this whole podcast just a three word prompt, right, and put it in a notebook and it'll build a podcast for us. That's true, but it doesn't have the same depth and fabric and feel that you and I talking have.

120
00:45:18,784 --> 00:46:11,536
Daniel Nestle: I mean, I'm a huge fan of NotebookLM, you mentioned that. And you know, that actually makes me think of another, I think area where people who are working, you know, either themselves creators as individuals or are working in companies that have a lot of content on their hands, you know, right now depends on where you're at. But right now a lot of that content is probably not being indexed or part of the AI universe. So by definition, if you start to look at that content, what you already have, what's already in your bank, so to speak, as a new source for new content, you're almost guaranteed originality based on what you've already done.

121
00:46:11,688 --> 00:46:56,672
Daniel Nestle: Yeah, and that's a kind of leap of imagination, I think for a lot of people is like wait a second, you know, I, I, I'm sitting on content that I can reuse and repurpose. You know, regardless of what Gary Vee says, squeeze the juice out everything just like that content bank that those legacy pieces that you've got is a gold mine. And AI is your, is your kind of key to unlock it I would think, you know, and are you seeing any of that movement in your work these days or, you know, I think that's going to be a key area for exploration moving forward for sure.

122
00:46:56,776 --> 00:47:42,562
Emanuel Rose: And that part of building that custom GPT is critical. Right. So forward thinking brands are doing that. I mean I've done it with all my books are in a custom GPT and then we're building social posts from that custom GPT. The podcasts I'll go into a custom GPT I can pull out of that all the time. So it makes it way easier to create content. It takes way less review because it's already approved content. Right. And so it's, I can turn my team loose on it and know with a 99 level of, you know, authority that it's going to be my voice, my brand, my authentic stories.

123
00:47:42,706 --> 00:47:54,738
Daniel Nestle: Yeah. And I think our clients and you know, customers really need to, well we need to get that, transmit that message across. Right. That there's a lot there's a there there, you know, and the custom.

124
00:47:54,794 --> 00:48:05,170
Emanuel Rose: GPT really is the, you know, the policy about how to use external resources and then building the custom GPT both for marketing and for administration of the business. Right?

125
00:48:05,210 --> 00:48:05,522
Daniel Nestle: Yeah.

126
00:48:05,586 --> 00:48:15,298
Emanuel Rose: All your HR policies, your insurance things, all those things should all be there because it is, it's instantaneous and it's.

127
00:48:15,314 --> 00:48:56,440
Daniel Nestle: Totally, you know, it's totally trainable. I, you know, in some sense you can say that a notebook and notebook lm it's not really custom GPT but it's a self contained database that you can use as a starting point or even as a just a continuous continual research place and you know, going to a custom GPT. If you're talking about chat GPT, as long as your privacy controls are set properly you should be okay. I'm a little, you know, I love Claude projects myself like Claude's projects which is their kind of version. Although I don't know, I, I'm, I don't think the privacy levels are the same for anthropic.

128
00:48:57,100 --> 00:49:13,482
Emanuel Rose: Well, let's just say there really is no Privacy, unless it's air gapped and you're bringing the LLM onto an air gapped machine. So I think we got to throw that privacy out and just say anything you are going to interact with online is going to be fair game.

129
00:49:13,586 --> 00:49:16,378
Daniel Nestle: I don't say, yeah, for the most part, I think you're right.

130
00:49:16,434 --> 00:49:17,070
Emanuel Rose: Yeah.

131
00:49:17,810 --> 00:49:41,800
Daniel Nestle: But you know, on that wonderful view of the future where everything is fair game, you know, look, we've really traipsed around a lot of ground and I know that, you know, your time is really valuable today because I know, like for our listeners, you know, we squeezed this one in a little bit and I really wanted to talk to Emanuel, but before he goes. Before you go, Emanuel.

132
00:49:42,140 --> 00:49:42,708
Emanuel Rose: Yeah.

133
00:49:42,804 --> 00:49:59,360
Daniel Nestle: I always ask my guests like, you know, what is keeping you up at night now, if anything? And it could be a good thing or bad thing, like what are the things that you're. That are on your mind in those wee hours or coming out of the shower or whatever it is that, you know, you think our listeners would want to hear about.

134
00:49:59,740 --> 00:50:37,220
Emanuel Rose: Well, I really am thinking about what I can automate. No matter how big of a string of activities, I want to automate all the stuff that is not creative so that I can spend more time playing my guitar and more time meditating and more time taking long walks and maintain the level of professional standards that I have. And every day we have more and more tools to do that. So I'm staying on top of that to automate. Automate, Automate. Because the goal is for the machine to do what the machine does and for me to not click around.

135
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:47,656
Daniel Nestle: I love that. Just don't click around. And I'm going to add musician to the list of renaissance man attributes. Forgot to mention that the loot wasn't a joke.

136
00:50:47,688 --> 00:50:49,528
Emanuel Rose: I mean, I would like to learn how to play the loot.

137
00:50:49,624 --> 00:51:08,564
Daniel Nestle: Yeah, well, there is a guitar in your background, I notice, for listeners. And that's kind of what's keeping me up now as well, or at least it's keeping me very active is figuring out this automation stuff. Do you have any particular tools that you really like to lean into for automation especially that's accessible to our listeners?

138
00:51:08,692 --> 00:51:37,282
Emanuel Rose: We love to use, we like zap and we like make.com and then N8N is a good one and it's kind of the next level. And then Crewai, those are all good tools. And then we have some good external resources that are AI developers and they'll come in and say for three hours they'll do whatever the things are, we can't do ourselves and build them out for us. So critical investment do have you had.

139
00:51:37,306 --> 00:51:40,354
Daniel Nestle: An experience with a Mind Studio by chance? Have you checked that out?

140
00:51:40,442 --> 00:51:41,522
Emanuel Rose: I don't know that one.

141
00:51:41,626 --> 00:52:27,660
Daniel Nestle: Yeah, some people are trying to turn me on to that and it's very. It's kind of fascinating. It's just like the next level up after Zapier and I've been playing with Zapier. That's where I had that coding issue for I talked about before. Yeah. But you know, once you figure it out, there's some clicks and you're like, holy crap, that's Wait, I need to do this more. I agree with you. And then if we can automate, if we can click less, if we can touch grass more, then I think we can all agree that we're in a good place. Emanuel, any final words of wisdom for our listeners and can tell everybody where we can find you apart from EmanuelRose.com and Strategy Marketing?

142
00:52:27,820 --> 00:52:53,260
Emanuel Rose: Yeah, well, you know, final word is embrace this change and use the time to spend with your family and your friends. And I can be. You can find me at Strategic E Marketing. You can find me on LinkedIn, Instagram @stragice and love to have a conversation for sure. It's been good. I appreciate your time today. Thanks for having me on. Daniel.

143
00:52:53,420 --> 00:53:05,548
Daniel Nestle: My pleasure. Emanuel and everybody. You'll see Emanuel's books in the show notes as well as how to reach him again. Emanuel Rose, pleasure to be in your presence for the last hour. Thanks so much.

144
00:53:05,684 --> 00:53:06,600
Emanuel Rose: Thank you.

145
00:53:12,740 --> 00:53:37,100
Daniel Nestle: Thanks for taking the time to listen in on today's conversation. If you enjoyed it, please be sure to subscribe through the podcast player of your choice. Share with your friends and colleagues and leave me a review. Five stars would be preferred, but it's up to you. Do you have ideas for future guests or you want to be on the show? Let me know@dantrendingcommunicator.com thanks again for listening to the trending Communicator.